उपेन्द्र यादव: संवाद

जनतान्त्रिकबाट मधेस आन्दोलनको बदनामी’

माओवादीसँग प्रत्यक्ष टकराव पर्न थालेपछि मधेसी जनअधिकार फोरमका अध्यक्ष उपेन्द्र यादव अर्धभूमिगत छन् । यही अवस्थामा उनी अमेरि का गएर गत साता फर्के । अनि, नेपाल का लागि सीताराम बर ालसँग भने, "जनतान्त्रिक समूहबाट मधेसी जनता दिक्क भएका छन् ।"

फोरमलाई अमेरिकी समर्थन रहेको आशङ्का गरिएकै बेला तपाइर्ं सुटुक्क अमेरिका पुगेर आउनुभयो, किन ?

मलाई अमेरिकी सरकारले बोलाएको होइन । म त्यहाँका नेपालीहरूको संस् थाको निम्तोमा गएको हुँ । बरु दूतावासले समयमै भिसा नदिएकाले निर्धारित तिथिभन्दा एक सातापछि मात्र पुग्न सकेँ । जहाँसम्म मधेस आन्दोलनको कुरा छ, यो नेपाली जनताले चलाएको आन्दोलन हो, अमेरिका वा भारतले होइन ।

अमेरिकामा कस्ता मान्छेहरूसँग भेट भयो त ?

डेमोक्रेटिक पार्टीका स्थानीय नेताहरूसँग भेट भएको हो, त्यो पनि त्यहाँ बसोवास गर्ने नेपालीहरूको पहलमा ।

यहाँ अमेरिकी राजदूत जेम्स एफ मोरियार्टीलाई भेट्ने गर्नुभएको रहेछ । कस् तो कुराकानी हुन्थ्यो ?

उनले सार्वजनिक रूपमा जे भन्ने गरेका थिए, मसँग पनि त्यही भन्थे । संविधानसभा निर्वाचन शान्तिपूर्ण रूपले भएको, नेपालको लोकतान्त्रिक प्रक्रिया सफल रूपले अघि बढेको देख्न चाहेका छौँ भनेका थिए उनले ।

अमेरिकाले किन मधेसमा माओवादी बढ्दा खतरा देखेको होला ?

अमेरिकाले माओवादीबाट खतरा देखेको छ भन्नु त जङ्गलको शेरलाई खरायोबाट खतरा छ भनेजस्तै हो । अन्तरिक्ष्ा युद्धको तयारीमा लागेको अमेरिका दुई-चारवटा हतियार भएको माओवादीसँग डराउनुपर्ने कारण के छ र ?

फोरम माओवादीविरुद्ध कसैबाट प्रयोग भएजस्तो लाग्दैन ?

जब आन्दोलन हुन्छ, त्यसबाट अनेकथरी मान्छेले फाइदा लिन खोज्छन् । यस् ता तत्त्वहरूले माओवादीलाई भड्काउने कोसिस गरे । यस्ता घटनाबाट हामीले शिक्ष्ाा लिनुपर्छ । माओवादी, हामी र अरू सबै लोकतान्त्रिक शक्तिहरूले त्यसबाट बच्ने कोसिस गर्नुपर्छ, नत्र देशले नकारात्मक परिणाम भोग्नुपर्छ ।

मधेसमा माओवादी बढ्दा भारतलाई खतरा हुने देखेर षड्यन्त्र भएको हो भन्ने माओवादी तर्कबारे के भन्नुहुन्छ ?

नेपालबाट भारतलाई कुनै खतरा छैन ।

नेपालमा अस्थिरता सिर्जना गर्न मधेस आन्दोलन भारतको निर्देशनमा भएको आशङ्कासमेत गरिन्छ । फोरम र भारतबीचको सम्बन्ध के हो ?

यदि मधेस आन्दोलन भारतको निर्देशनमा भएको भए यतिबेला नेपालको भौगोलिक स्वरूप नै बदलिसक्थ्यो । अर्को कुरा, आफ्नो अधिकारका लागि मधेसी जनता त्यो आन्दोलनमा मर्न तयार भए । अमेरिका, भारत वा चीनले उक्साएको आन्दोलन भएको भए यसरी मर्न तयार हुन्थे ? हिजो प्रतिकूल परिस् िथतिका कारण काङ्ग्रेसदेखि माओवादीसम्मका नेताहरू भारतमा बसेकै हुन् । तर, हामी भारतमा रहँदा मात्र किन नियतमाथि नै प्रश्न उठाइन्छ ?

सशस्त्र गतिविधि गरिरहेका जनतान्त्रिक तराई मुक्ति मोर्चाले पनि भारतमा आश्रय पाएजस्तो लाग्दैन ?

को कहाँ बस्छ भन्नुभन्दा कसको नीति के हो, त्यसले के गर्न खोजिरहेको छ, त्यो महत्त्वपूर्ण हो । नेपालका अपराधीहरू भारतमा र भारतका अपराधीहरू नेपालमा प्रशस्त मात्रामा बसेका छन् ।

अमेरिका जानुअघि तपाईंहरूले जनतान्त्रिक मोर्चाहरूसँग पटनामा संयुक्त बैठक गरेर देश टुक्र्याउने मुद्दामा छलफल गर्नुभयो । के तपाईं पनि विखण्डनकारी राजनीतिमा लाग्नुभएको हो ?

कसैको नीति होला, देश विभाजन गर्ने भन्ने । तर, देशमा देखापरेका समस्याहरूको समाधान नेपाल देशको सार्वभौमसत्ता र अखण्डतालाई आँच नपुग्ने गरी खोज्नुपर्छ भन्ने हाम्रो मान्यता हो । सङ्घीय शासन प्रणाली र स्वायत्तता हामीले नेपालभित्रै खोजेका हौँ, नेपालबाट अलग्गिएर होइन । हामी देश विभाजनको कल्पना पनि गर्न सक्दैनौँ । मधेसमा सशस् त्र सङ्घर्ष गर्ने जनतान्त्रिकलगायतका सङ्गठनहरूको नीतिप्रति हाम्राे सहमति छैन । मधेसको विभेदको अन्त्य शान्तिपूर्ण सङ्घर्षबाट गर्नुपर्छ । नेपाल देशभन्दा बाहिर गएर समाधान खोज्नु बेकारको कुरा हो ।

पटना बैठकमा ज्वाला सिंहले ँअब उपेन्द्रबाट हामी आशा गर्न सक्दैनौँ, त्यसैले नेतृत्व रामराजाप्रसाद सिंहले लिइदिनु पर्‍यो’ पनि भनेछन् होइन ?

जसरी फोरमबाट जनतान्त्रिकले कुनै आशा गरेन, हामी पनि जनतान्त्रिकबाट कुनै आशा गर्न सक्दैनौँ । जनतान्त्रिकले मधेसको आन्दोलनलाई सकारात्मक तरिकाले अगाडि बढाउला भन्ने हामीलाई लाग्दैन । हाम्राे बाटो अलगअलग छ ।

फोरम र जनतान्त्रिकबीचको सम्बन्ध के हो त ?

कुनै सम्बन्ध छैन । मधेसका कतिपय सङ् गठनहरू माओवादीबाट उछिट्टएिर बनेका छन् । कतिचाहिँ कहाँबाट-कहाँबाट जन्मेका छन्, त्यसको ठेगान छैन । के प्रयोजनका लागि त्यस्ता सङ्गठन खडा गरिएको हो, त्यो पनि थाहा छैन ।

सम्बन्ध छैन भने फोरमका कार्यक्रमलाई ँकभर’ बनाएर जनतान्त्रिकका दुवै समूहले माओवादीमाथि भएका आक्रमणको जिम्मा के आधारमा लिन्छन् त ?

हामी हाम्राे कार्यक्रममा त्यस्ता सङ्गठन नआऊन्, उनीहरूले गर्नुछ भने अलग कार्यक्रम गरून्, घुसपैठ नहोस् भन्छौँ । तर, हामीले नचाहँदा-नचाहँदै दुर्घटना हुन पुग्छन् । सस्तो लोकपि्रयताका लागि कतिपय समूहले त्यसको जिम्मा लिन्छन् । त्यस्ता दुर्घटना हुँदा वक्तव्य निकालेर आफ्नो प्रचार गर्ने र शक्तिशाली देखिने होड मधेसमा चलिरहेको छ ।

गौर नरसंहारबारे के भन्नुहुन्छ ?

त्यसको जिम्मेवारी ज्वाला सिंहले लिएकाले त्यस घटनामा फोरम दोषी छैन भन्ने देखिन्छ । समग्रमा भन्दा गौर घटना हामीविरुद्धको षड्यन्त्र हो । फोरमलाई जनतान्त्रिकजस्तै हिंसामा उत्रिएको सङ्गठन हो भनेर देखाउन र हामीलाई मूलधारबाट अलग्याउन त्यो घटना गराइयो ।

गौरमा तपाईं जाने प्रचार हुनु तर नजिकै भएर पनि नजानु र अन्त्यमा माओवादीको संहार हुनुले त्यो घटना तपाईंहरूबाटै नियोजित रूपले भएको देखिन्न र ?

घटना हुँदा म त्यहाँ होइन, काठमाडौँमा थिएँ । त्यसदिन गौरमा पचासौँ हजारको 'मास' थियो । त्यस् तो मासमा कस्ता खालका मानिस छिरेका छन् भन्ने थाहा हुन्न । माओवादीले फोरममाथि आक्रमण गर्ने निर्णय नगरेको भए त्यो घटना हुने पनि थिएन । दोस्रो, दोषी प्रशासन हो । किनभने, त्यस्तो घटना हँुदैछ भन्ने प्रशासनलाई थाहा थियो ।

फोरममा रहेका दरबारिया पृष्ठभूमिका मान्छेबारे के भन्नुहुन्छ ?

फोरममा दरबारियाहरूलाई कुनै ठाउँ छैन । हाम्राे आन्दोलन सङ्घीय लोकतान्त्रिक गणतन्त्रका लागि हो ।

प्रधानमन्त्री-पुत्री सुजातासँग हिजोआज निकै कुराकानी हुँदोरहेछ है ?

उनी नेपाली काङ्ग्रेसकी नेतृ हुन् । म उनलाई चिन्छु । उनले पनि मलाई चिन्छिन् । पहिले उनीसँग कहिलेकाहीँ भेट हुन्थ्यो ।

गृहमन्त्री हटाउनुपर्ने फोरमको माग त्यस्तै भेटघाटको उपज हो ?

काङ्ग्रेसका दुईतिहाइ केन्द्रीय सदस्यहरूको पनि माग हो यो । गिरिजा -प्रसाद कोइराला) समेतले हामीसँगको कुराकानीमा -गृहमन्त्री सिटौलालाई) बोकेर हिँड्नुको प्रयोजन छैन भनेका हुन् । व्यक्तिगत रूपमा उनी राम्रा र सज्जन होलान्, हिजो वार्तामा राम्राे भूमिका पनि खेलेका थिए होलान् । तर, गृहमन्त्रीको रूपमा उनले मधेस आन्दोलनमाथि दमन गरे, शान्तिसुरक्ष्ाा पनि कायम राख्न सकेनन् । त्यसैले, हामीले राजीनामा मागेका हौँ ।

ँवाईसीएल’ माथि प्रतिबन्ध लगाउनुपर्ने मागचाहिँ कति तर्कसङ्गत छ ?

उहाँ -माओवादी) हरूले पनि फोरममाथि प्रतिबन्ध लगाउनुपर्ने माग गर्नुभयो । यस स्थितिमा हामीले वाईसीएलमाथि प्रतिबन्धको माग गर्नु अस् वाभाविक होइन । अहिलेका सरकारप्रमुखले नै वाईसीएललाई 'क्रिमिनल लिग' भनेर नामकरण गरिदिनुभएको छ । 'क्रिमिनल लिग' ले कि आचरण बदल्नुपर्‍यो कि त्यसका गतिविधि रोक्नुपर्‍यो । माओवादी यसरी नै गइरहने हो भने संविधानसभाको निर्वाचन हुन सक्दैन, लोकतन्त्र पनि रहन्न । त्यसैले, माओवादी साँच्चिकै लोकतान्त्रिक हुनुपर्छ ।

यस्तै माग जनतान्त्रिक मोर्चाका सवालमा किन गर्नुहुन्न ?

जनतान्त्रिकले पनि आचरण सुधार्नुपर्छ । उसको सङ्घर्षको तौरतरिकाले मधेसको आन्दोलनलाई सकारात्मक असर पारेको छैन । बरु, उनीहरूबाट मधेस आन्दोलनको बदनाम भइरहेको छ । जनतान्त्रिकलगायतका शस्त्रधारी समूहबाट मधेसी जनता दिक्क भएका छन् । सबै समूहहरू राष्ट्रिय राजनीतिको मूलधारमा आउनुपर्छ ।

फोरम आफैँचाहिँ मूलधारको राजनीतिमा छ त ?

हामी मूलधारकै राजनीतिमा छौँ । संविधानसभाको निर्वाचनमा भाग लिन निर्वाचन आयोगमा पार्टीका रूपमा दर्ता हुनु यसको प्रमाण हो ।

फोरमका पुराना धेरैले छाडिसके, यसको कारण के हो ?

पहिले फोरममा विभिन्न राजनीतिक दलका मानिस थिए । तर, अहिले फोरम आफैँ राजनीतिक दल बन्यो । ती साथीहरूले आफ्नै दलको राजनीति गर्ने हो भने फोरममा रहनुको कुनै अर्थ रहेन ।

सरकारले तपाइर्ंहरूको माग कति पूरा गर्‍यो ?

केही मागमा सहमति भएको छ तर कार्यान्वयन भएको छैन । जस्तै- सहिदहरूलाई क्ष्ातिपूर्ति दिने, घाइतेहरूलाई उपचार गर्ने, मुद्दा खारेज गर्ने, मधेसी, आदिवासी, जनजातिहरूलाई समानुपातिक प्रतिनिधित्व गराउने आदि ।

फोरमको आँखाबाट हेर्दा मङ्सिरमा संविधानसभाको चुनाव सम्भव छ ?

अहिले सरकारमा न चुनावका लागि चाहिनेे तदारुकता देखिन्छ, न त आवश्यक तयारी भएको छ । चुनावका लागि चाहिने प्रमुख कुरा भनेको शान्तिसुरक्ष्ााको प्रत्याभूति हो । यसका अलावा आन्दोलनरत पक्ष्ाहरूसँग वार्तामा बसी सहमति कायम गरेर चुनाव शान्तिपूर्ण वातावरणमा सम्पन्न गराउनुपर्छ । तर, यी काम भइरहेका छैनन् ।

INTERVIEW WITH UPENDRA YADAV

Excerpts of an interview with Upendra Yadav, chairman of the Madhesi People's Rights Forum (MPRF) from Nepal magazine.

Q. You secretly went to the US and returned at a time when the Forum is suspected to have American support. Why?

Yadav: The American government did not invite me. I went there on the invitation of an organization of Nepalis residing there. I could only arrive there a week behind the scheduled date as the (US) Embassy did not issue the visa on time. As far as the Madhes agitation is concerned, it is an agitation launched by the Nepali people, and not by America or India.

Q. Who did you meet in America?

Yadav: I met with the local leaders of the Democratic Party, that too, on the initiation of the Nepali diaspora.

Q. You used to meet US ambassador James F Moriarty here. What issues were discussed?

Yadav: What he used to say publicly, I also said the same thing. He had said he wanted to see the Constituent Assembly elections held in a peaceful manner, and the Loktantric/ democratic process move ahead, successfully. Q. Why does America perceive Maoist advancement in Madhes as a threat?

Yadav: To state that America senses a threat from the Maoists is like saying a rabbit poses a threat to a tiger. Is there any reason for America, which is bracing for Star Wars, to get intimidated by the Maoists wielding a few weapons?

Q Don’t you think that the Forum is being used against the Maoists by someone?

Yadav: When there is an agitation, different types of people try to take advantage of it. Those elements tried to instigate the Maoists. We have to learn from such incidents. The Maoists, we and all other democratic forces must try to protect ourselves from that, lest the country suffers a negative fallout.

Q. What is your take on the Maoists’ argument that the plot was hatched, considering the threats a Maoist advancement in Madhes poses to India?

Yadav: Nepal poses no threat to India.

Q. It is even suspected that the Madhes agitation was launched on India’s behalf to destabilize Nepal. What is the link between the Forum and India?

Yadav: Had the Madhes agitation been staged on India’s behalf, Nepal’s geographical structure itself would have changed by now. Secondly, the people of Madhes were ready to lay down their lives for their rights in the course of that agitation. Could they have been ready to die in that way had the agitation been prompted by America, India or China? Leaders ranging from the Nepali Congress to the Maoists had lived/ taken shelter in India due to adverse situations. But, why are our intentions being questioned just because we stay in India?

Q. Don’t you feel that Jantantric Terai Mukti Morcha, which is conducting armed activities, is getting shelter in India?

Yadav: One’s policy, what that person is up to, is more important than where one lives. A lot of criminals in Nepal have settled in India and a lot of Indian criminals have settled in Nepal. Q. Prior to your US visit, you convened a joint meeting with JTMMs in Patna and discussed the agenda about separating the country. Are you involved in politics of disintegration? Yadav: Someone could have a policy of dividing the country. But, it is our belief that the solution to the problems dogging the country needs to be addressed without hurting national sovereignty and integrity. We have sought federal governance and autonomy within Nepal, and not by separating from Nepal. We can’t even imagine a division of the country. We also do not accept the policy of the organization waging an armed struggle in Madhes, including the JTMMs. Discrimination in Madhes needs to be ended through peacefully. It is futile to look for the answer outside the country.

Q. At the Patna meeting, Jwala Singh even said ‘Now we can expect (anything) from Upendra, hence Rajaram Prasad Singh needs to assume the leadership’, right?

Yadav: Much like the way the JTMM does not expect anything from us, we also cannot expect anything from the JTMM. We don’t think the JTMM can lead the Madhes agitation, positively. Our paths are separate.

Q. Then, how do you define the relationship between the Forum and the JTMM?

Yadav: The relationship does not exist. Many organizations in Madhes were formed after dissociating from the Maoists. It is unknown where the other organizations came from. We also do not know the purposes behind the formation of such organizations.

Q If the relationship does not exist then on what basis do both the factions of JTMM take the responsibility for the attack on the Maoists using the Forum activists as their “cover”?

Yadav: We do not want such organizations to attend our programme. Even if they have to organize a programme let them do it separately. Let there be no infiltration. However, accidents do occur despite our wishes. Many organizations take responsibility for them for cheap popularity.

A trend to release press statements owning up to such incidents to garner publicity is on rise in Madhes.

Q. What can you say about the Gaur carnage?

Yadav: Since Jwala Singh has taken up the responsibility for the incident, one can see that the MPRF was not responsible. To summarize, the Gaur incident was a conspiracy against us. Those who wanted to defame the MPRF as a group committed the violence like JTMM prohibiting us from coming to the mainstream.

Q. You were scheduled to address the Gaur mass meeting. But you didn't attend it despite the fact that you were present in a nearby area. Later, the killings of the Maoists cadres took place. Doesn't it give the impression of the picture being preplanned by the MPRF itself?

Yadav: When the incident took place, I was not there- I was here in Kathmandu. At the time of the Gaur incident, there was a gathering of thousands of people. How could we know what kind of people were hiding in the crowd? If the Maoists had not made the decision of attacking the MPRF, the incident would have never taken place. Second, the administration is also responsible. Because, the administration already knew that such an incident was going to take place.

Q. What would you say then about the MPRF activists from a royalist background?

Yadav: There is no place for royalists in the MPRF. Our andolan is for a federal democratic republic.

Q. Talks with the prime minister's daughter Sujata have become frequent these days?

Yadav: She is a Nepali Congress leader. I know her personally. She also knows me. We used to meet occasionally in past. Q. So the MPRF's demand that the Home Minister should quit is the result of those meetings? Yadav: It is also the demand of two-thirds of the people within the NC party. Girija (Prasad Koirala) has himself confessed during our meetings that there isn't any purpose of carrying (Home Minister Sitaula) while walking forward. Personally, he would be a good and honest person, and he would have played a good role during our talks too. However, as a Home Minister he tried to suppress the Madhesi andolan and failed to maintain peace and order. So that's why, we have asked for his resignation.

Q. Do you think that the demand to ban YCL (Young Communist League) is logical?

Yadav: They have also demanded that the MPRF should be banned. Under these circumstances, if we also make a similar demand then it's not such an unusual demand. Today, even the head of the state has christened the YCL as the Young Criminal League. The "Criminal League" should either reform itself or stop its activities. If the Maoists continue to move forward this way, then the Constituent Assembly elections won't take place- even democracy won’t be sustained. That's why the Maoists must truly democratize itself.

Q. Why don't you make a similar demand regarding JTMM as well?

Yadav: The JTMM should also reform itself. The manner and the way of their struggle haven’t had a positive impact on the Madhesi andoaln. However, their activities have defamed the Madhesi andolan. The Madhesi poeple are tired of armed groups like the JTMM. Every group should enter the political mainstream. Q. Do you think the MPRF is itself in the political mainstream? Yadav: We are in the political mainstream. The proof is that we've already registered the MPRF as a political party to take part in the upcoming CA polls. Q. Why do you think many old MPRF activists have left?

Yadav: Earlier, there were people of various political parties in the MPRF. However, the MPRF became a party in itself today. If those friends want to do politics for the parties they belong to, then there is no point in being in the MPRF.

Q. How many of your demands have been fulfilled by the government?

Yadav: We've reached consensus on a few demands, but they are yet to be implemented. Like- providing compensation for the families of the martyrs, medical treatment for the injured, a dismissal of all legal complaints, and proportional representation of Madhesi, indigenous, and ethnic people.

Q. From the MPRF perspective, do you think that the CA elections are possible on November 22nd? Yadav: Today, neither has the government shown real activity to hold the CA polls, nor have the necessary preparations been made. A sense of peace and security is crucial for the CA polls. Besides, the government should hold talks with various agitating groups to create an amiable environment for the CA polls. However, these things are yet to be done.

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