The New School Event: The Madhesi Question
Introduction by Ashok Gurung (Blastpodcast)
Prof. Pramod Kantha (Blastpodcast)
Paramendra Bhagat (Blastpodcast)
Prof. Mahendra Lawoti (Blastpodcast)
Kul Chandra Gautam (Blastpodcast)
Q&A Session (Blastpodcast 1, Blastpodcast 2, Blastpodcast 3)
Anand Jha: Raising Dust At SEBS
Anand Jha: Slugging It Out At SEBS
Topic: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Original Post
Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Hari Sharma 1/30/2007 12:25:00 AM EST
SEBS has members from all geographic regions of Nepal and is uniquely placed to make positive and un-biased contribution to this current crisis. SEBS-NA wants to create an atmosphere for a friendly discussion aimed to bring about the real problems facing the terai region of the country at the moment. We are with the theme “Himal, Pahad, Terai-Kohi Chaina Parai”-a popular slogan in the nation right now.
Objective of the discussion is to understand the following issues:
1) History of the issue- how did all this start? What is the role of different stakeholders of the nation?
2) Specific areas of discrimination taking place.
3) Legal, social-political and structural changes required to move ahead from this stalemate. How do the demands of several organizations from the Terai region compare with the real changes needed in the nation?
We also plan to have a conference(s) if we really feel that such conferences will enhance our understanding of the situation better. If you do want to have local conferences and or want to participate in conference calls to have a discussion on the issue, do let us know at sebsna@sebsonline.org.
Since this is a serious issue, please understand that we will be moderating this discussion. However, this does not mean we plan to edit/delete posts without a reason. Please abide by the following rules/guidelines while making a positive contribution on this issue.
Please be polite and courteous and treat others as you would want them to treat you.
Respect the guidelines for forum use. Respect fellow SEBS-community members, and guests.
Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize something, give examples as to why it is good or bad; general attacks on a person will not be tolerated.
Responses to this particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Please start a new thread for other topics.
If possible, please use your own identity to facilitate healthy discussions. Again, please understand that we do not intend to censor your posts, but we want to maintain an open discussion without offending each other.
Hari Sharma
Excomm Member-SEBS-NA
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
" " 1/30/2007 3:54:26 PM EST
Seriously it sounds funny. i dont think there is a need for one more thread. there is alot going on in the existing threads. conference? all wastage. i dont think it is going to achive something subtantial .
back off Hari Bro.
Last edited on 1/30/2007 3:55:09 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
a 1/30/2007 4:51:08 PM EST
I also think that this is an old trick to cover up the mess and try to look cool.
All these points are already being discussed in full.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
500b 1/30/2007 7:28:53 PM EST
I dont think all the points are being covered.
What is the problem..
* is it the Indians settling in Nepal and claiming nepalese citizenship
* A society unwilling to come in terms with its minority folks ( again I don;t think maidesi folks are traditional "minority" considering their number though it might be otherwise in terms of influence)
*
* Or it is the Caste system sleeping with the 200 plus years of shah rule...that promoted caste( bahun/chettri) system, central rule( kathmandu vs rural folks) and certain class(rana shah) even within the caste .
I think the root problem...if we are thinking interms of a solution..it is the last one...which has affected the way we view people from terai....'as if' being nepali was to use nepalese language...wear daura surwal, celebrate dashain.....symbols actively promoted in the last century..
------ What we need is a change in the attitude..do you think a simple constitutional change will bring about the change in the attitude.?? Iam not saying change in constitution i.e. proportinal represenation will not help ...but I don;t think this will solve the real problem.
Wasn't it always...tyo madhise ....tyo nepali....not really pahade vs madhise
Even the newars had to struggle for theri identity...
How can we bring about a change in attitude...
Comments???
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 1/30/2007 8:18:06 PM EST
The change in attitude will take a while to happen. I think what you mentioned as the root cause is right on target.
Change in attitude will take some time but here is how we can accelerate the process:
1) Federal structure where parts of Terai have quite a bit of power.
2) Inclusion of Hindi and as a national language ( year Hindi, just so happens that its spoken in north India too, but thats the unifying language of Terai)
3) Inclusion of Dhoti as a national dress
If proper democracy is practiced I would think in 10-15 years you will have some Yadav as the head of government or head of state. The attitude of what Nepal is will slowly start changing from what people pecieve Nepal to be. Rather than how it is currently defined, it wil be mixture of what is Pahad and whats Madhesh.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai- WHy can't we think differently?
FIRANTE 1/30/2007 9:40:51 PM EST
Well, its nice tha tthe SEBSers ae being concerned about the situation back home.
I dont understand why so many organizations are blindly following the herd with out understanding the real "root cause" behind the present crisis.
I do understand it takes a long time for change..for any kind of change. A sudden and abrupt change is not good most of the time. Changes have to be gradual and inclusive.
What all need to understand at the present situation is that its not a regional, communal or constitutional problem. The root cause behind all this and the maoist problem all are traceable to the "common enemies" of all the developing countries of the world. The root causes are ILLITERACY, UNEMPLOYMENT, LACK OF PROPER AND EDEQUATE COMMUNICATION FACILITIES, LACK OF PROPER TRANSPORTATION, and moreoever, A LACK OF AWARENESS among the country men.
Had Nepal had a good infrastructure, good education, employment for all and good comunication and transportation facilities we would not have to face the present ciris, the maoist problem and any other problems of this kind.
If all the different communities start such so called “revolutions” we can only imagine how bad will be the situation of the country. What if Bahuns, Chhetris, Thakuris, Newars, Magars, Gurungs, Rais, Tharus, Chepangs, Sherpas etc all start the same kind of “revolution? I know there are communities from each above mentioned groups where people are left behind, where they don’t have access to basic human needs (proper education, employement, proper representation to name a few…)..should all the communities start violent “revolutions” ?
Nepal has been so long (till the last few years) well known around the world as a land of peace and harmony. People should not waging violent “revolutions” in disguise of their “rights”.
As I have mentioned above, if our country only had good transportation and communication facilities, there would have been no talks about different languages, “pahades and Madhesis and Kirats” etc. After all how big is our country? There should be no communal problems when we all have lived in peace and harmony for such a long time in the past.
Another very important thing the so called “leaders” inciting violence in the name of revolution have to realize is how much harm are they doing to their own fellow country men and to the all already poor infrastructure that took several decades to build. Do they realize how long it will take the next government to replace all the infrastructure that they destroy in the name of “revolution”? Do they realize how many people get killed in the process? I know its easy for them because they do not get into the streets and their kids are not the ones to be killed. May be they would realize the loss if someone from their family would be the one to be killed in the “revolution”. I know its easy for them and they make it sound great by declaring some one a “martyr”. But does that “martyship” take care of the problems of the family of the deceased one? Do they realize how the kids will feel without their father? How the wife will feel without her husband? How the aging parents will feel seeing their son die? Who takes care of the family? Who replaces the loss of the bread winner of the family? Mere “martyrship” does not find solution to the problems the family will be facing after the death of their loved ones.
Another important thing that everyone should have seen in the history of the so called revolutions (may it be the revolution of 2007 BS, 2036 BS, 2047 BS, 2063 BS etc ) is that are our leaders are only capable of inciting people in doing something destructive. I know they can get thousands of people in the streets for “bandhas” “chakka Jaams” etc. They can get all the college youths on the street to set buildings on fire, break street lamps, vandalize vehicles to name a few. Has anyone seen any incident where those “leaders” have been able to mobilize people for something constructive? Have our “leaders” even been able to gather a good number of people for building roads, schools, hospitals etc? NEVER. If the leaders had their charm to influence people for positive constructive work, Nepal would have been developed a long time back.
And also, may it be those “madhesi” or “kirat” leaders; have their thought about bringing changes through minor changes changes from the grass root level? Have they ever thought whether their local schools and hospitals have been managed properly? Have their VDC and City’s budget been spended properly and efficiently in a transparent manner? Well, why would they bother to do so…it doesn’t bring them in light if they start getting involved in such constructive things. Have they ever thought of doing something constructive by gathering such a huge mass for numerous days? NEVER…..
What everyone has to understand is that if those “leaders” get into power in the future, they will forget those issues that they raised in the past (the issues that caused lot of deaths and destruction to the infrastructure).
Nepal was gaining momentum in developmental aspects after the re introduction of democracy in 2047 BS. I know it was not dramatic and magical. Things cant happen over night. But there were positive changes taking place slowly. Why cant our “leaders” be positive and constructive? Why cant we all think about developing our country? Why not think about a few good highways to connect all different communities…Madhesis and Pahades, Kirats etc…Why cant we develop industries and factories so that all Pahades and Madhesi get employment?...Have those leaders ever thought about making sure that all the Nepalese get proper education, good access to medical facilities, electricity, roads, employment etc…??
Changing things in paper does not bring about changes in the life of the people. Would people care what the form of government is in the country if they have their basic needs of their daily life fulfilled? I remember reading something like “unique features of Nepal” in one of our text books. Is Nepal adding another unique feature by being “the country with most Chakka Jams and Bandhas and Violent forms of revolution” ?
Why cant we resolve problems through alternative channels when all other countries of the world can resolve their problems through alternative channels?
I know this has been too long for most of the readers to go through it. But for those who took their time to make it to the end, thanks for your time. Hope this means something to the readers and all the nepalis. Lets all try to make change in the country through positive constructive works..
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
" " 1/31/2007 12:13:06 PM EST
Anand
Why dont we call Nepal as part of India (as Madhuri once said ),one more "prant" added to "Hindustan".That would incompass everything.One step and one big leap.What do you think?
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
1) Federal structure where parts of Terai have quite a bit of power.
2) Inclusion of Hindi and as a national language ( year Hindi, just so happens that its spoken in north India too, but thats the unifying language of Terai)
3) Inclusion of Dhoti as a national dress
Last edited on 1/31/2007 2:36:24 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
" " 1/31/2007 12:14:41 PM EST
Anand
Why dont we call Nepal as part of India (as Madhuri once said ),one more "prant" added to "Hindustan".That would incompass everything.One step and one big leap.What do you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
1) Federal structure where parts of Terai have quite a bit of power.
2) Inclusion of Hindi and as a national language ( year Hindi, just so happens that its spoken in north India too, but thats the unifying language of Terai)
3) Inclusion of Dhoti as a national dress
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
loknath332B 1/31/2007 9:14:33 PM EST
The situation in southern Nepal is worsening and I see that we are heading towards a full-fledged civil war. More saddening is the fact that this civil war is going to be based on race. Goit's letter (in another post) clearly indicates the impending civil war in the terai. There are a large and significant number of people of pahadi origin in terai and in many places they outnumber the madhesis. The region adjoining Biratnagar, for instance Jhorahat where the Madhesi Janadhikar Forun (MJF) cadres attacked, is padhadi dominated region. Most areas in Sunsari, Morang and Jhapa that lie to the north of Mahendra highway and the areas adjoining the highway are dominated by people of pahadi origin. If the madhesi fundamentalists continue their activities people of pahadi origin will start to retaliate and the situation will get worse.
You do not need to be from terai to see the obvious discrimination against the people of madhesi origin in Nepal. They are highly under-represented in government, the armed and the police forces, the judiciary and virtually every branch of governance. The recent uprising (it is not merely some royalists’ conspiracy to create havoc) is an indication of the frustration among the madhesi because of this prevalent discrimination. Whoever might have instigated this event (it is of no concern now), but now it is turning into a popular uprising. And like most popular uprisings there are some genuinely appropriate demands. The uprising is based on these genuine demands and most madhesi out in the streets want to see their genuine demands fulfilled. However, some extremist factions are trying to tap this uprising to their benefit. Goit and Jwala are two of these groups. They have been demanding repatriation (?) of the people of the pahadi origin since long before this uprising started. Now they are trying to tap this madhesi uprising to make their illogical demands.
Where does the repatriation issue stand? People of pahadi origin have been living in many parts of the terai since 3/4 and even more generations. In many parts, especially in the eastern terai, they are the majority groups. For these people going back to pahad is meaningless. They have a sense of belonging and all their material wealth in the terai. If they are forced to go to pahad (as Goit claims) where they do not belong, the only alternative for them would be to retaliate. Looking at the current state of events in the terai, this retaliation stage is approaching, and sadly it is approaching at an alarming rate. Unless some sensible leader causes a restraint on the present activities, god help Nepal.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 1/31/2007 10:02:23 PM EST
Loknath dai,
You are right, who started this movement is irrelevant now.Nepal Government need to send a strong signal to the people that they are serious about resolving this issue before its too late. Sadly, the address my Girja was not strong enough, it seems. The longer the government wonders whether its the royal infltrator or hindu fanatic or its really the common people, the more supporter Goit and Jwala Singh will get.
The home minister must resign and offer sincere apology for firing at protestors. And it must be done fast. All Madhesi I know are seeing it as an uprising of the type that was against Gyanendra's rule, it has to be treated the same way.
As far as Goit's letter is concerned. Its meaningless at theis point. No one supports it. There are many Madhesis in Pahad. We Madhesis are well aware that civil war is as bad for Madhesh as it is for Pahad.
This anger has suddenly boiled, and the most sensible thing to do is calm it down-- at least temporarily. Some clear signal has to be sent. Sitaula must resign and offer an apology. Baburam and Prachanda must apologised for calling the leaders of Terai as by products. They are as good as Prachanda and Baburam. Its too late for sermon about communal harmony.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Dude 1/31/2007 10:43:57 PM EST
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
If proper democracy is practiced I would think in 10-15 years you will have some Yadav as the head of government or head of state.
According to Paramendra Bhagat, in his own words, He is the 2nd most important person in Nepal, after Madhav Nepal. He says that Madhav Nepal will be first President and then him.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
kanchhi 2/2/2007 4:11:18 PM EST
Does that mean "If proper democracy is practiced I would think in 10-15 years you will have some Bhagat as the head of government or head of state."
Quote: Originally posted by Dude
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
According to Paramendra Bhagat, in his own words, He is the 2nd most important person in Nepal, after Madhav Nepal. He says that Madhav Nepal will be first President and then him.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Ke 2/2/2007 4:25:25 PM EST
Who said that HINDI is the unifying language of the Terai??...........that's propoganda to make us like India.....vasts swaths of the Terai speak dialects that are very different from Hindi......so I don't beleive Hindi should be made a national language.........
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/2/2007 5:19:40 PM EST
Ke, I think everything should be open for discussion. The whole idea is to question even conventional wisdom. You should try to bring forward your arguments, rather than saying that there something that are not open for discussion.
When a Bihari looking Madhesis who is a citizen of Nepal from Janakpur talks to a Bihari looking Madhesis from Birgunj who is also a Nepali citizen, they talk in Hindi. When my dad talks to his boss who is also from the Terai he doesn't not speak in maithili or Nepali, he talks in Hindi. When you talk to poor Madheshi selling vegetable in Kathmandu, what language do you use? Do you talk to him in Maithili or Bhojpuri? Or do you talk to him in Hindi? Thats precisely why Hindi should be considered as another national language of Nepal. You can ask some other Madhesis about this too.
When the question is about redefining the very fabric of what Nepal has stood for, the old fabric is quite meaningless. Nepali language for the Madhesis is that of the colonizer (read the article by Skhudev Shah), who has never treated us well. It’s perfectly natural for us to question why Nepali should be the only language of the country we are citizen of.
Nepali language is of value to you because it is your mother tongue. It is of value to me because that’s what many people in Nepal speak. However, It has no sentimental value to me, if anything it is the language of people who have never treated the Madhesis as one of there own
Last edited on 2/2/2007 5:20:53 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
janta 2/2/2007 5:56:23 PM EST
I don't think a lot of Madhesi people speak hindi. Its not the case in western terai. I don't know about the easter terai. It seems that there are few people in terai of Koshi,Sagarmatha and Janakpur who speak hindi according to Anand. What percent of people speak hindi in nepal ? 5%. Your family might be an "extreme" case since you mentioned that your mother is an indian and your father a nepali and you said that you plan to marry an indian girl. Are all people like you?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Ke 2/2/2007 6:16:16 PM EST
All that talk about Nepali having no sentimental value and such does not mean anything. It is an official language that most people can understand and used for official purposes. No one forces you to use nepali. If you were to have your way, we should have thousands of national languages!! what's the point?
Maybe in Janakpur, people all speak Hindi. But again, vast swaths of the Terai, just like the person above mentioned, do not speak Hindi as their tongue. You can try to distort that fact, but it just isn't true.
As for never being treated as nepali, the sad fact is that, most nepalis feel that way. Between class, caste and ethnicities, there is no respect. As a matter of fact, even among the madhesi community, there is that same prejudice. The problem is a nepali problem and not a madhesi (or madhise) problem.
The day you stopped talking of rights and justice and instead started talking about own state and hindi as a language with very little merit, I've felt that it is a wrong direction that I have to oppose.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
GM 2/2/2007 6:16:25 PM EST
Anand,
I do not think your logic makes sense. I speak in Newari to my mom. I speak in Newari to the shopkeeper down the street. My dad also speaks in Newari in his business. Now should we have Newari as another national language of Nepal? Same will be the case for Gurung, Rai, Tamang, Magar, Sherpa and the list will go on. If we are treating Madhesi as the National language, then we should treat all the other languages such as Newari, Gurung, Sherpa and all languages as national languages. I do not think one language should be more special than others. The reason for having one national language is for convenience. Now if we are having more than, one then why even have a national language?
So either we need to have Nepali as our one and only national language or we need to recognize all the languages as national languages. I am with you in equal rights, votes, and etc but not in this one. I bet that if Madhesi was to be the national language, all the communities will fight for their languages to be national languages as well. I will personally be fighting for Newari as well. It will be a never ending fight.
And this issue is not unique to Nepal. There are many people in the US who cannot speak English. There are tons of Chinese people in China town in NY who only know Chinese and they can get by fine. There are millions of Mexcians who can get by talking only in Spanish in the US. Now the US is the greatest democracy, do people make as big of deal as you?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/2/2007 6:37:53 PM EST
GM,
I think the difference between the examples you gave and Nepal, is that Madhesis are about 35-40% of the population. If 35-40% of your population think that they want Hindi as a national language, because they find it to be their unfying language of all Madhesis, I would think it has a strong case.
I do not speak Hindi at home. I speak maithili. I was saying that Hindi was the unifying language of the Madhesh, actually only rarely do peple speak in Hindi at home. But its the language spoken outside home. Its clearly the unifying language of Madheshis.
If Nepal divided into different states, and Madhesh is going to be a state. It can have its own regional language and they can decide what to have. I think they will decide to keep Hindi rather than Bhojpuri or Maithili.
However, the most important thing for democracy to survive is Nepal is to practice the one-mam-one vote idea. Hindi as another as a national language is certainly not as important as other issues like federalism and proper representation in all aspects of the state.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
janta 2/2/2007 7:27:23 PM EST
Anand, are you saying that 35-40% in Nepal speak hindi??
I know that people don't speak hindi in western Nepal. Dhanusha and Janankpur is not only terai in Nepal. Your father speaks hindi wiht his boss does not mean that hindi is the unifying language in terai.
The population you mention (35-40%) living in Terai are not all the type of madhesi you are talking about. 35-40% population of terai also includes, Tharus, kamaiya, "pahadis living in terai" and so on.
I bet there are more kirat in nepal than the "Madhesi" that anand is discribing (the ones who consider hindi as their unifying language and so on).
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/2/2007 8:15:26 PM EST
janta,
You should read what I write more carefully. I said 35-40% are Madhesis ( check nepal GOV wesbite on population statistics),. They speak languages that are more similar to Hindi than Nepali. When people with this language speak to each other, they tend to speak in Hindi. Therefore, its fair to say that Hindi is the unfying language od Madhesh.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/2/2007 9:22:35 PM EST
About different languages spoken in Nepal go to
http://www.cbs.gov.np/Population/Monograph/Chapter%2004%20%20Language.pdf
Population monograph chapter 4 by Dr. Yogendra P. Yadav. Dr. Yadav (Madheshi perhaps) states less than 1.5% of nepalese people speak Hindi as a mother tongue. How can Hindi be unifying language if it spoken by such a small fraction of the nation's peopulation.
Below are the data from Census Bureau
Distribution of population of Nepal by mother tongue
Year Year
Mother Tongue 1952/54 % 2001 %
A. Indo-European 6351899 77.13 17982769 79.1
1 Nepali 4013567 48.74 11053255 48.61
2 Maithili 1024780 12.44 2797582 12.3
3 Bhojpuri 477281 5.8 1712536 7.53
4 Tharu 359594 4.37 1331546 5.86
5 Awadhi 328408 3.99 560744 2.47
6 Rajbansi 35543 0.43 129829 0.57
7 Hindi 80181 0.97 105765 0.47
8 Urdu 32545 0.4 174840 0.77
B Sino-Tibetan 1795337 21.08 4183995 18.4
9 Tamang 494745 6.01 1179145 5.19
10 Newar 383184 4.65 825458 3.63
11 Magar 273780 3.32 770116 3.39
12 Rai, Kirat 236049 2.87 -
13 Gurung 162192 1.97 338925 1.49
14 Limbu 145511 1.77 333633 1.47
15 Bhote, Sherpa 70132 0.85 129771 0.57
16 Sunuwar 17299 0.21 26611 0.12
17 Danuwar 9138 0.11 31849 0.14
18 Thakali 3307 0.04 6441 0.03
C. Austro-Asiatic 16751 0.2 40260 0.2
19 Satar 16751 0.2 - -
20 Santhali – – 40260 0.18
D. Dravidian – – 28615 0.1
E. Other 70340 0.85 28615 0.13
F. Not stated 752 0.01 503295 2.2
Total 8235079 100 22738934 100
:
Source Population Census (1952/54-2001)
Last edited on 2/2/2007 9:26:07 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
GM 2/2/2007 9:26:40 PM EST
Anand,
You said that people rarely use Hindi at home in Nepal. The national language should have a deep root in the society. So why would you want to use Hindi as a national language when it is not even spoken at home? If you were to argue that Hindi is used used in business, then why not use English, the only global language and language of choice for business.
Also, if 30 - 40% want Hindi as a national language, 60% - 55% may not want it as a national language. This is not because they are against Hindi but because of inconvenience and economical and logistical costs of having two official languages in a small country. Again, I am for equal rights and so on. Think about the situation of a Rai in Tapeljung. Given that he has to learn to speak in Nepali for official work in Kathmandu, he will need to learn Hindi to work in Birtanagar. It will also work the otherway. A teacher from Lahan will not get a job of teacher in Taplejung unless he/she knows Rai language. Now, this is an enormous waste or resources and time for non Hindi speakers just because certain people want their language to be official language.
Also, think about the greater cost of doing business, which will be passed on to consumers, who are poor in the first place. You have to advertise in different languages. Your local government documents may be in different languages and you will probably need an official translation if they were to be used in other regions, which means more money. You will need text books in different languages in different regions, which means more money spent. Now given these enormous cost, do you think it is worth having more than one national language? Remember if Hindi is accepted as a national language, other communities will not stay quiet. So if you are a businessman from Birgunj and want to expand the business to Solukhumbu, you will need to learn Sherpa/Tibetan languages? If you want to buy a real estate in Kathmandu, what if Nagarpalika uses Newar as an official language? Are you willing to pay this price just for sake of having the language you like as the national language?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
GM 2/2/2007 9:29:00 PM EST
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
janta,
You should read what I write more carefully. I said 35-40% are Madhesis ( check nepal GOV wesbite on population statistics),. They speak languages that are more similar to Hindi than Nepali. When people with this language speak to each other, they tend to speak in Hindi. Therefore, its fair to say that Hindi is the unfying language od Madhesh.
Now, how different is Hindi from Nepali? I think Hindi and Nepali are more similar than Newari and Nepali, or Gurung language and Nepali and so on. This argument is just ridiculuous.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
janta 2/2/2007 10:50:05 PM EST
Now janta is laughing at Anand.
Did you see the statistics posted by Topaz. Your hindi speaking people are just 0.47% in 2001. They might have boomed and become 40% by 2007. Who knows!! Just wait 4-5 months when they will reach 90% and we will make hindi our national language. To put it the other way lets wait till CA.
holdon, there are 0.18% people speaking santhali. This could be a good candidate for the national unifying language.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
junge 2/3/2007 12:18:16 AM EST
There is no argument that there should be only one national language. The figures show why Nepali is the uniting language in Nepal and I will not even go into the discussion about Hindi being the united language for the "whole" country. Tarai is itself a vastly different region. Each district is different from another in many ways. My hometown is Nepalgunj and I have spent countless summers and winters in Nepalgunj. Yes, we use Hindi in the markets, but we rarely use Nepali as frequently as we use Hindi.
My grandparents were born in Kathmandu but they have lived Nepalgunj for more than 50 years now. I will never agree to anyone who asks my grandparents to go back and you know why? Because they are Madhise . They may look "Pahade" but they have lived there for so long that they love Madhes, they love tarai. After all, are we not all Nepalis? Is this not a time for Nepalis to unite?
The government in the past has not been in favor Madhises. Living in the Madhes, I have seen that myself. The sukumbasi movement, giving pahadi people free land in the tarai by clearing the forest, is the biggest mistake King Mahendra made during the Panchayat era. Sukumbasis got addicted to their free land. They kept on moving one forest clearing to another claiming free land and destroying the fabric of life in tarai. The sukumbasi movement, I believe, was a result of the socialist ideology that King Mahendra held. I don't think there was a direct effort to suppress the ethnic Madhesis even though there is no doubt that they were suppressed as a result.
The nation is going through a transition for gods sake. Nepal is barely limping towards a CA election. Now with this movement, the country has fallen down into a ditch. The event that started this whole movement was a real unfortunate incident. The Maoist cadres who who were involved should be punished. I think a CA assembly will be a much better step to take to reverse the discriminations that have happened. This movement will only divide the whole nation into pieces even though it is based on eliminating discriminations that, in my view, happened.
Madhise brothers, we should work together to help our motherland cross this transitory stage. The new Nepal will surely usher in a new age that delivers equal right, not just to, but to all minorities who have been oppressed, whose have been denied their basic rights. Lets just stay together now. Lets not divide at this crucial moment.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/3/2007 1:50:11 AM EST
Another interesting categorization of nepali people
CASTE/ETHNIC GROUPS OF NEPAL CASTE OR ETHNIC GROUP POPULATION PERCENT OF TOTAL
CASTE Population %
Chetri 3,593,496 15.80
Hill-Brahmin 2,896,477 12.74
Magar 1,622,421 7.14
Tharu 1,533,879 6.75
Tamang 1,282,304 5.64
Newar 1,245,232 5.48
Muslim 971,056 4.27
Kami 895,954 3.94
Yadav 895,423 3.94
Rai 635,151 2.79
Gurung 543,571 2.39
Damai/Dholi 390,305 1.72
Limbu 359,379 1.58
Thakuri 334,120 1.47
Sarki 318,989 1.40
Teli 304,536 1.34
Chamar, Harijan, Ram 269,661 1.19
Koiri 251,274 1.11
Kurmi 212,842 0.94
Sanyasi 199,127 0.88
Dhanuk 188,150 0.83
Musahar 172,434 0.76
Dusad/Paswan/Pasi 158,525 0.70
Sherpa 154,622 0.68
Sonar 145,088 0.64
Kewat 136,953 0.60
Terai-Brahmin 134,496 0.59
Baniya 126,971 0.56
Gharti/Bhujel 117,568 0.52
Mallah 115,986 0.51
Kalwar 115,606 0.51
Kumal 99,389 0.44
Hajam/Thakur 98,169 0.43
Kanu 95,826 0.42
Rajbansi 95,812 0.42
Sunuwar 95,254 0.42
Sudhi 89,846 0.40
Lohar 82,637 0.36
Tatma 76,512 0.34
Khatwe 74,972 0.33
Dhobi 73,413 0.32
Majhi 72,614 0.32
Nuniya 66,873 0.29
Kumhar 54,413 0.24
Danuwar 53,229 0.23
Chepang 52,237 0.23
Haluwai 50,583 0.22
Rajput 48,454 0.21
Kayastha 46,071 0.20
Budhae 45,975 0.20
Marwadi 43,971 0.19
Santhal/Satar 42,698 0.19
Dhagar/Jhagar 41,764 0.18
Bantar 35,839 0.16
Barae 35,434 0.16
Kahar 34,531 0.15
Gangai 31,318 0.14
Lodha 24,738 0.11
Rajbhar 24,263 0.11
Thami 22,999 0.10
Dhimal 19,537 0.09
Bhote 19,261 0.08
Bing/Binda 18,720 0.08
Bhediyar/Gaderi 17,729 0.08
Nurang 17,522 0.08
Yakkha 17,003 0.07
Darai 14,859 0.07
Tajpuriya 13,250 0.06
Thakali 12,973 0.06
Chidimar 12,296 0.05
Pahari 11,505 0.05
Mali 11,390 0.05
Bangali 9,860 0.04
Chhantel 9,814 0.04
Dom 8,931 0.04
Kamar 8,761 0.04
Bote 7,969 0.04
Brahmu/Baramu 7,383 0.03
Gaine 5,887 0.03
Jirel 5,316 0.02
Adivasi/Janajati 5,259 0.02
Duga 5,169 0.02
Churaute 4,893 0.02
Badi 4,442 0.02
Meche 3,763 0.02
Lepcha 3,660 0.02
Halkhor 3,621 0.02
Punjabi/Sikh 3,054 0.01
Kisan 2,876 0.01
Raji 2,399 0.01
Byangsi 2,103 0.01
Hayu 1,821 0.01
Koche 1,429 0.01
Dhunia 1,231 0.01
Walung 1,148 0.01
Jaine 1,015 0.00
Munda 660 0.00
Raute 658 0.00
Yehlmo 579 0.00
Patharkata/Kuswadiya 552 0.00
Kusunda 164 0.00
Dalit/Unidentified 173,401 0.76
Unidentified Caste/Ethnicity 231,641 1.02
NEPAL 22,736,934 100.00
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
cabinet member 2/3/2007 2:19:01 AM EST
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Mr. Pradip Kumar Gyawali
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Last edited on 2/3/2007 2:31:16 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/3/2007 9:51:57 AM EST
The old data of 1 person in the hill= 1.08 person in Terai was obtained only using the eastern development region. This includes the entire country. This
So when look at the entire country the differences between Hilli and Terai folks only be becomes greater (1 Non-Terai= 1.12 Hills). That is equivalient to 24 extra sheet for the Phadis.
If you just have 2 divisions: Terai and Non-Terai, the differences are about 1 Terai-wasi= 1.16 Non-Terai wasi. That is equivalient to denying 34 extra seats for Terai folks.
This data is obtained from the article published in Nepalnews. com by Bijaya, perhaps the same person who has been making arguments all the same lines in sebs. Here is a link to the article: http://www.nepalnews.com/archive/2007/others/guestcolumn/feb/guest_columns_01.php
Seats in Parliament Population Per Constituency
Mountain 10 34000
Hilly 106 73000
Terai 89 82000
Suppose we let the folks form mountain have what they do:
1 person in in the Hills= 1.12 in the Terai
That converts to 24 extra seat for the Pahad in the parliament.
If you just have 2 divisions: Terai and Non-Terai, the differences are about 1 Terai-wasi= 1.
17 Non-Terai wasi. See Data below
Seats in Parliament Population Per Constituency
Non-Terai 116 69638
Terai 89 82000
Last edited on 2/3/2007 9:55:03 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/3/2007 9:59:24 AM EST
I made a mistake in the last post:
Its:
1 Hill person = 1.12 Terai
Equivalient 24 less seats in parliament.
and
1 Terai eprson =1.17 Non-Terai person
Equivalient to 34 less seats in the parliament.
Last edited on 2/3/2007 10:00:18 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
ma nepali 2/3/2007 11:25:50 AM EST
भालुलाई बार्ह वर्ष पुराण सुनायो।सीता कसकी जोई?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
FIRANTE 2/3/2007 12:27:07 PM EST
Do we have any facts or statistics to prove that 35-40% of the people speak Hindi as their primary language?
How about the percentage of nepalis who can speak Nepali?
I know even most to the Pahades can speak Hindi. There is a difference between people being able to speak a certain language and people being able to communicate in one and only language.
Also, how do you know that the Terai people want Hindi to be their formal language?
Is it just a few people trying to take advantage of the vast number of innocent people?
How do you even know that the Terai people want a separate state? Has the general public ever wanted to have a different language language as their primary language?
I am more than sure that the people in Terai (or any nepali in general ) would not care about wat form of government they have or wat is their official language as long as their basic needs are met..as long as their kids can go to school, as long as they can work, as long as they havevaccess to basic needs like food, water, electricity, telephone, and other basic needs. There are a lot many things that need greater attention that wasting our time and destructing the infrastructure that took years to build.....it just doesnt make any sense to see whats going on in nepal at present...
How much will it cost to the nation to go through all this ....Also there are already many areas where schooling is done in their local language at the primary language.
The Education Ministry also announced that more schools will start educating the kids in their language (meaning language thats primarily spoken at home..).
This should be the last thing people should make a big deal out of.
We have much more important issues to be taken care of at this time.
How many people living in Jumla, HUmla, Rukum , Rolpa and other montaineous regions have the facilities the people in Terai have?
There is one article in BBC about a school going kid in Rolpa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6309475.stm). This might help you know the situation of the people living in those regions.
You can compare the facts and see for yourself how justfied is what you have been demanding for Terai...
Also this is a time where we have to look at things in a broader sense...Its not only Terai that makes Nepal...We need to develop all parts of the country...
This is just my thought.. I knwo this wont make any changes in the way you think ....but try to broaden your mind and think about the nation as a whole...look at what other fellow country men have......
Jay Nepal....
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
GM,
I think the difference between the examples you gave and Nepal, is that Madhesis are about 35-40% of the population. If 35-40% of your population think that they want Hindi as a national language, because they find it to be their unfying language of all Madhesis, I would think it has a strong case.
I do not speak Hindi at home. I speak maithili. I was saying that Hindi was the unifying language of the Madhesh, actually only rarely do peple speak in Hindi at home. But its the language spoken outside home. Its clearly the unifying language of Madheshis.
If Nepal divided into different states, and Madhesh is going to be a state. It can have its own regional language and they can decide what to have. I think they will decide to keep Hindi rather than Bhojpuri or Maithili.
However, the most important thing for democracy to survive is Nepal is to practice the one-mam-one vote idea. Hindi as another as a national language is certainly not as important as other issues like federalism and proper representation in all aspects of the state.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/3/2007 3:50:05 PM EST
I don't trust data provided by Bijaya. How can there be only 10 seats for MPs in Himali region when there are 18 himali districts. See the map of nepal at
http://www.cbs.gov.np/Population/National%20Report%202001/default.htm
This is iterative map. If you click on any district, it gives the summery of its population.
18 himali districts are Darchula, Bajhang, Bajura, Humla, mugu, Jumla, Kalikot, Dolpa, Mustang, Manang, Gorkha, Dhading, rasuwa, Sindhupalchowk, Dolakha, Solukhumbu, sankhuwasabha and Taplejung. Among these districts, Humla, mugu, Dolpa, Mustang, Manang, rasuwa, Dolakha, Solukhumbu, sankhuwasabha and Taplejung are core Himalayan districts. Jumla, Sindhupalchowk are mostly the part of himalayas. Darchula, Bajhang, Bajura and kalikot have substancial portion (appx. 50%) of himali land. Gorkha and Dhading streaches from tibet border to all the way south near mugling and Abu khaireni. Thus their northern parts (1/3) are also the part of Himali region. Above are the districts with substantial portion of Himali region only. Districts like Ramechhap, Lamjung and Kaski which have small portion of himali land is not included. Some of the Himali districts have two MPs, ie. Taplejung and perhaps others.
My conclusion from these facts is, Himali region has more MPs than Bijaya and Anand stated.
Hope Anand does his calculation based upon the facts. The problem I have seen in this thread is, people are not able to distinguish between Himali and Pahadi region. I know, Dhading is divided into 3 constituencies. Northern one (from where Buddiman Tamang won last time) is purely himalayan constituency. It touches tibet and most of the people residing are Tamangs. It is few days walk from the district head quater. Since 2/3 of the district (area just west of KTM) is hilly, should we consider northern constutency also a part of hilly region? Look at the facts, try understanding little bit of geography and demography first. Don't be biased towards only one region.
Remember Regions are not political boundaries. However districts are. Thus most of southern districts have some portion of hills. Similarly many pahadi districts have himali area and many northern districts have pahadi area.
Last edited on 2/3/2007 4:14:05 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
dumbass 2/3/2007 4:15:17 PM EST
anand
why dont you look at your data with a different perspective. lets look at it my way
non mountain 1,50,36,000
mountain 3,40,000
this according to you means 1 montainer = 22.68 non-mountainer
so why dont you call for all the non- mountainers to fight with mountainers? It seems to me that mountainers have dominated people from both terai and hilly region? look at the margin
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
dumbass 2/3/2007 4:36:50 PM EST
in fact anand is an idiot. i dont know where he got his data from but i can see that its wrong at its inception. there are 16 districts in the mountain region and with all the districts having at least one constituency and some having two, the region should have more than 16 constituencies and not 10. now about the terai fact, you can not extract a fact from combining all the constituencies from terai. i am from jhapa which is even more underrepresented (in your terms) than dhanusha. there are very few what you call madhesis in jhapa and you can not add jhapa to your madhesis list. there are a lot of districts like that i am sure who dont deserve to be in your madhise list. so using the wrong data as a justification to an arguement wont verify your cause. why dont you clarify more of yourself.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/3/2007 5:58:25 PM EST
Claims made by some people to make hindi as an unifying language of Terai is ridiculous. Hindi is spoken by less than 0.5% of Nepali population. Me being from Terai, don't consider Hindi as our language. My parents don't even know how to speak and so as many older generations in our place. It is used when we go for shopping in near by Indian border town or when we go to Nepalganj. Those people who claim Hindi to be unifying language, have lost their faith and confidence in their own mother tongue. I have seen many people in our country being shy/hesitant in using their own languages even among themselves. They feel other languages are superior than theirs.
Last edited on 2/3/2007 6:33:23 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Testimonials 2/4/2007 3:32:15 PM EST
Hello All Anand Haters,
I have known Anand since last 10 years . I have known him as a very direct person who does not beat around the bush to advocate equality , truth and impartiality. At times he might seem to be stubborn and rigid, but if someone proves him wrong backed by evidences , he would gladly bow down and say " yeah you make sense - you broaden my horizon". yes its coming through my personal experiences. There were instances in high school, where there were few members of our classmates ( who were blessed by teachers and SMT) who tried to act superior over those who were less blessed. I remember him vigorously fighting against that and I still see the same attitude in his postings now- although they seem extreme at times.
There is no doubt that Anand believes in communal harmony and it makes me feel sad that some of the sebers have portrayed him as an antisemitic persona and an ethnic cleanser. He is not like some hypocrats who deny that there are issues in MADESH that need immediate attention.
The very thought that plagues our mind as a ruling class of people (aristocratic castes from Pahad) should no longer be a driving force in our political arena anymore. Local and ethnic empowerment is the only way out for the current fiasco. The mentality of considering 40% of population as secondary citizens must stop right now - they are not all Bihari Gundas and Dacoits.. They need equal representation in the political arena..
Anand..keep advocating for equality!!!
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/4/2007 4:38:17 PM EST
Testimonials,
In this thread, I don't see anyone hating Anand. Not agreeing upon some thoughts does not mean hating. Anand put his thoughts and others commented. Thats it. Anand said Madheshis are discriminated. Thats true everyone agreed. Anand said Madheshis are under represented in parliament in the basis of population. others said, ya true but population should not be the only factor. Anand and others have done research. They have collected facts and presented. Based upon the facts most of the comments are presented in this thread. Thus the discussions in this thread have been very good. Anand mentioned Hindi to be unifying language, others did not agree. Anand said madheshis are under represented by 35 seats in the parliament, others did not agree. They looked at the facts, calculated and commented.
Yes, Anand has argued for betterment of Madhesh. Its good. Madesh problems have to be solved but not at the expense of other regions which has similar problem as of Madesh. If you look at far west and mid west pahad and whole Himalayas, the problems are more severe than that of Terai. Human development index of those regions is low and difficulties faced by those people is much more than that of Terai.
About pahadi domination upon Madheshis, yes its obvious fact. Specially in KTM, Chitwan, pahadis don't consider madeshi as a human being. Its a sad thing and must be stopped immediately. But at the same time which class of pahadis are those? Approximately, 1/3 of Nepal's population is of Terai origin and 1/3 of Nepal's population are either pahadi dalits or adibasis. These people are not the one discriminating madheshis (I don't know if these pahadis also discriminate madhesis in eastern terai). So the people who discriminated madhesis belong to 1/3 of pahadis of upper caste. Among them, many have not settled in Terai and don't come in contact with Madheshis. Thus, when one says Madhesis are dominated by Pahadiyas, its true but by only a small fraction of pahadiyas.
In the basis of representation of madeshi people in parliament, I believe there should be few more seats for madesh but not as much as 17 or 35. I don't think it was intentional discrimination. It happened because geography is also another factor. Madhesi origin representation has been less than the number of seats available for madhesh districts, because, madheshis have right to choose whom they want. In many districts they chose Pahadiyas as their representatives. There is nothing wrong with it. For a nation, its not madheshis or pahadiyas, its nepali that is important thing and problem of madheshis or himalis or pahadiyas should be solved as a problem of whole nation.
Anand has pointed the madhesi issues, argued for it. Thats good. Thats the way we come to better understanding of the problem. Keep it up Anand, no one is hating you as testimonials points out.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
sanjay das 2/4/2007 6:33:05 PM EST
Federalism is the way ahead. This will make us stronger as a nation. The problem lies in phobia in the ruling psyche that when madhesis ask for equality and dignity, they see it as a design to weaken Nepal and playing into Indian hands.
Lets support federalism - lets be equal.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/4/2007 7:18:24 PM EST
I agree our country should accept federal system. It is heading towards it and in new constitution made by CA, I believe the Nepal will be federeal democratic. Now the question is what should be its model. Should it be like the one tabled by Maoist based upon ethnic or Linguishtic basis or should it be like once paramendra Bhagat tabled ie. having three states and each states comprising Himal, Pahad and Terai. Should present development regions be made states within Nepal or something else? So far, I liked the model proposed by Paramendra Bhagat. I wish Paramendra puts his idea about federal democratic Nepal in the discussion forum once again.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/4/2007 11:35:42 PM EST
Thanks Testimonial and Topaz, you two encouraged me to write again:
The biggest obstacle to modern democracy in the future of Nepal is the dominance of power by upper cast Pahadis. Their resistance to give up power is only natuaral. Ranas were unwilling, Shah’s were unwilling. Gyanendra was defending his case until the very end. Upper cast urban Phadis are human beings too—It is only natural. If Madhesis were in the position of Pahadis, they would be doing the same. The people in power and who are enjoying privileges will always make all kinds of excuses to maintain the status-quo.
Baburam, Prachanda, Girija, Madhav Kumar Nepal and Deuba, all the major players are all Pahadi Bahun or Chettri. They will do their best to rig the constitution in their favor.
Other urban upper cast Phadis will always support such a rigging, because they benefit from it.
They can be defeated, but they won’t be convinced. The focus of the movement should be to bring the regime in Kathmandu to its knees. Protest in the Terai must continue, Janajati’s must join the movement until the 2 major demands are meet:
1) Electoral constituency must be based on population and nothing else. One-man-one vote is the essence of democracy. Like there are axioms in mathematics when you prove a theorem, one-man one vote is the very essence of democracy.
The biggest obstacle to modern democracy in the future of Nepal is the dominance of power by upper cast Pahadis. Their resistance to give up power is only Ranas were unwilling, Shah’s were unwilling. Gyanendra was defending his case until the very end. Upper cast urban Phadis are human beings too—It is only natural. If Madhesis were in the position of Pahadis, they would be doing the same. The people in power and who are enjoying privileges will always made all kinds of excuses to maintain the status-quo.
Baburam, Prachanda, Girija, Madhav Kumar Nepal and Deuba, all the major players are all Pahadi Bahun or Chettri. They will do their best to rig the constitution in their favor.
Other urban Phadis will always support such a rigging, because they benefit from it.
T
2) Federal states are a must, but that’s not enough. The constitution must guarantee certain right of the state government that central government cannot take away. Similarly, certain rights of the VDC also must be guaranteed.
Whatever the division of states might, one of the prime focus must be to create structural impediments that oppression of one community over another community does not occur. I like the Maoist map better, because I think that decreases the probability of hilly upper cast dominance to power.
I do not like the idea of having one unified Madhesis as the Madhesis want, because I see that as an attempt to dominate the entire Nepal.
Last edited on 2/4/2007 11:38:15 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/5/2007 12:10:03 AM EST
he biggest obstacle to modern democracy in the future of Nepal is the dominance of power by upper cast Pahadis. Their resistance to give up power is only Ranas were unwilling, Shah’s were unwilling. Gyanendra was defending his case until the very end. Upper cast urban Phadis arehuman beings too—It is only natural. If Madhesis were in the position of Pahadis, they would be doing the same. The people in power and who are enjoying privileges will always made all kinds of excuses to maintain the status-quo.
Baburam, Prachanda, Girija, Madhav Kumar Nepal and Deuba, all the major players are all Pahadi Bahun or Chettri. They will do their best to rig the constitution in their favor. Other urban Phadis will always support such a rigging, because they benefit from it. They can be defeated, but they won’t be convinced. The focus of the movement should be to bring the regime in Kathmandu to its knees. Protest in the Terai must continue, Janajati’s must join the movement until the 2 major demands are meet:
1) Electoral constituency must be based on population and nothing else. One-man-one vote is the essence of democracy. Like there are axioms in mathematics when you prove a theorem, one-man one vote is the very essence of democracy.
Actually, things can get pretty complicated if don’t believe in one-man-one vote. It can be argued that people who are illiterate should not be allowed to vote! Since people for remote areas are not very educated, their vote should be weighted less. What do you think about that? Or only SLC pass should be allowed to vote? How do you like that? Don’t you think that’s outrageous??? So my suggestion, lets stick to one-man-one vote. Let’s go to the basics.
Remember we are about to draft a constitution, that is supposed to exist forever. We are not debating on some economic policy, but rather drafting a constitution. Ramechap has poor economic condition than Janakpur right now, but 200 years from things might just switch. Economy and life style condition in temporary, constitution is forever—at least we want it that way.
Dolpa , Manag, and Humla has had few number of people for constituencies since 1990, but has their economic condition improved at all? If the government is really serious of the economic condition, why haven’t they been declared a special economic zone and why hasn’t the government paid special attention to these states when it come’s economic growth.
Once you believe in one-man- one vote. You will find that the Terai is 36 seats sorts. That’s simple arithmetic really. If you don’t believe in every individual having equal right in having in building the constitution, you can start throwing in the number of infant mortality, land area, nutrition and all that.
2) Federal states are a must, but that’s not enough. The constitution must guarantee certain right of the state government that central government cannot take away. Similarly, certain rights of the VDC also must be guaranteed.
Whatever the division of states might, one of the prime focus must be to create structural impediments that oppression of one community over another community does not occur. I like the Maoist map better, because I think that decreases the probability of hilly upper cast dominance to power.
I do not like the idea of having one unified Madhesis as the Madhesis want, because I see that as an attempt to dominate the entire Nepal.
Last edited on 2/5/2007 12:11:12 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
meh 2/5/2007 5:17:53 AM EST
I will try to be honest.
I dont think I have ever really thought of "Madise" as being Nepalese citizens.
I practically grew up in Kathmandu, and my views of Nepal is restricted to what little I have seen outside of it.
I have made fun of them, I have looked down on them, either actively or passively. I am from an upper class family, and thought I was better than them.
Also, I am pretty certain similar feeling were shared between my friends and family.
I thought our rights were of higher priority than theirs.
I can go into more detail example, but I am certain many of you know what I mean.
Now I am not in Nepal, and I am not exactly sure what is really going on.
But I know that I have been wrong. I think I still harbor the some of the same feeling that I have had in the past.
I am a tad bit more mature and understand things a little better.
I think I have done my fair share of exploiting the Madise, the "lower cast" and the poor of nepal. The old system has worked in my favor in almost every aspect. Practically spooned fed everything and accepted the things as they were.
This has been my confession. Its been much easier as I can hide behind the forum.
Its easier to say it from here, as I am thousand of miles away from Nepal.
But we have wronged these peoples for generations.
We dont want the country divided, we want one language, etc.
I am not sure what they want....But I have a feeling that they are trying to have their voices heard.
Its about time I come in terms with my bigotry.
Last edited on 2/5/2007 5:22:27 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
abcd 2/5/2007 4:54:56 PM EST
When you had to chose the MP, you chose Girija and Makune. Now you are talking about Madhise representation. Man, just choose madhise, if you think madhise should be in the parliament.
I do not at all agree with what you say 'one-man-one-vote' system. Like you acuse urban elites of pahad trying to keep the power, you are trying to do the same thing by moving the power to Terai. We want power equally distributed in the country.
Those are also nepali who live in the corners of himalayas. Such people should not be neglected. Your system of representation on the basis of population, does not do fair deal to the under-populated regions.
Madhise mathi discrimination bhayo bhanera hadtaal garne, and you demand more discrimination against rural parts of nepal?
what a hypocrite.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/5/2007 5:38:19 PM EST
justice and democracy is for people. Not for tree, mountains and paddy fields.
If you don't believe in one-man-one vote. I have nothing to say.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Kiran 268B 2/5/2007 6:39:12 PM EST
As a BNKS alumni it should be self evident truth that we are all equal in Nepal. There is no reason whatsoever in new Nepal to continue to be relegated to second tier citizenry. Time has come for the formal apology of exclusion against all forms of indiscrimination perpetrated by the state machinery, reconcile, build a new Nepal and move on.
I am very encouraged by Ananda bhai, Sanjaya bhai UK and others for bringing awareness in this issues. Let us never again feel humiliated in the new Nepal. There is not an iota of doubt in my mind that Madeshi and jana Jati issues would be resolved but the greater challenge for Terai would be to cope with their own internal caste system, which will be of immense challenge to overcome.
When everyone else forgets, as a BNKS alumni let us remember.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/5/2007 7:24:23 PM EST
Paudel Bahun Is Lying
- Paramendra Bhagat
"The question at the moment is: Who to hold talks with? We don't know whether there is anyone who, after holding talks and agreeing upon something, can convince protesters that their demands have been met," says Ram Chandra Poudel, general secretary of the Nepali Congress, the largest party in the interim parliament.
The question is not if to hold talks. The question is to meet the basic demands. Girija Koirala is a televised speech to the nation has to meet the demands.
1. Krishna Sitaula resign.
2. All those who have died in the Madhesi Movement have to be declared martyrs. Their families have to be compensated. All the injured have to be treated by the state.
3. All eight parties have to commit to the principle of a federal republic, the shape of the federalism to be decided in the constituent assembly.
4. Proportional elections for all seats in the constituent assembly in a way that there is proportionate DaMaJaMa representation in the assembly. Cap the assembly at 300 seats.
5. Citizenship papers to all Madhesis.
6. Upendra Yadav, Deputy Prime Minister in the Interim Cabinet.
As soon as these demands are met, the Madhesi Movement will get off the streets.
The Madhesi Janadhikar Forum is clearly the leader of this Madhesi Movement. Upendra Yadav is the leader of the Madhesi Janadhikar Forum.
At the mass level, leaders and cadres of all parties are participating, it is not just the Sadbhvana (Anandi). There is participation in every single village and town in the Madhesh.
This patronizing tone of this Paudel Bahun is highly offensive.
More people have died in this Madhesi Movement than was the case during the April Revolution and this Bahun still does not know what the basic demands of the Madhesi Movement are. This Bahun is pretending.
Girija Koirala, that other Bahun, said to Jhala Nath Khanal that he will meet the demands "at an appropriate time." Now is not that appropriate time. Not enough people have been killed according to Girija Koirala.
The Madhesi Movement is at the verge of charting its own course. The movement will reach a point when it will make its own decisions.
There will be an unilateral declaration of a Madhesh Sarkar. A state will be declared unanimously. Federalism now, Madhesi Movement style.
And Girija will still be looking for an "appropriate time."
The next phase of the Madhesi Movement might be to paint the boards of all government offices in the Madhesh. Paint over Nepal Sarkar. Write instead Madhesh Sarkar. The state government of Madhesh.
Or Girija and his minion Bahuns could play ball now when there is still time.
The Nepali Congress is to be wiped out of the Madhesh regardless.
This guy Girija is a sadist. He is looking for "an appropriate time."
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
slash 2/5/2007 9:39:24 PM EST
first of all, i believe that madhesis were discriminated and treated as if they were non-citizens..and this present situation is due to the anger which was accumulated due to oppression of Madhesis..although i don't support the violence involved in some places, i agree with this revolution of Madhesis..but, i want to have an open-minded discussion about the demands.
anand dai, i am not that knowledgable to debate..but i have some views..could you please explain the reasons for those demands? (i am not trying to argue , just trying to know)
1. Krishna Prashad Shitaula's resignation- i can't understand why he should resign... all the political parties(even people) at first thought that this was just an uprising incited and supported by King and BJP....so, it was not just Krishna Sitaula who gave orders to shoot... everyone was thinking that it was king's plan to cause violence and disrupt constitution assembly...maintaining peace and order was his responsibility...only later was it realised that although king/bjp may have some part ,but most the protesters were general people of terai... and you can't deny the violence used by the protesters..my uncle of pahadi origin was beaten up because he was in Madhesh..public and private properties were destroyed indiscriminately...shouldn't government try to maintain peace... although they were more strict than necessary, some of their actions may have been justified..
and you can't deny Krishna's work in bringing Maoists to peace..he worked more than Girija or Prachanda or anyone else.. i admire him for that..
btw, i am not related to him in anyway..hahaha...so, you don't need to stop yourself from saying anything bad about him if true..
2. saying all who died as martyrs seems an accepted fact now..but it actually is an insult against the real martyrs..only after investigation should declaration of martyrs be made... a person accidentally shot is a sad thing but not a case of martyrdom...a person causing violence and killed is also not a case of martyrdom.. yes, some of those who died are martyrs but not all..but i agree with the compensation demand.
3. all parties have said they support federal republic..and i don't think this interim government has right to declare such change in system when constitution assembly is coming so soon...btw, i am against federal republic because nepal is too small for this and it will just increase government spending if federal republic means autonomy as those of US states...if you are talking about talking about limited autonomy(probably like India) then i agree and i dont think anyone else would disagree...i don't know much about this though..please elaborate, and i am willing to change my view.
4. and 5. i agree ..and i don't think any politician would disagree to this..
6. I don't think he should be appointed as deputy PM just to show representation of madhesis..we don't know anything about his qualification..and there is much debate about this post as Maoists are probably going to get it...and guys, even though madhesis have a serious issue, don't forget what was happening about a year ago..Maoists are coming to peace..why do people forget how aweful it was???
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
junge 2/5/2007 9:50:56 PM EST
Things are seem to be taking dangerous turns in Nepal. I don't know how exactly the government can meet the demands that Anand dai is talking about here, especially the last demand since the Maoists will like to hold that position too.
I just read this news. The divide within the Madhise front seems to have taken a more violent turn too. Hope they can fight for their rights together.
----------------------------------
3 killed in clashes between Jwala Singh, Goit led JTMM factions
By Dilli Ram Khatiwada
SAPTARI, Feb 5 - A gun-battle between the Jaya Krishna Goit and Jwala Singh-led factions of the Janatantrik Terai Mukti Morcha (JTMM), a breakaway faction of the CPN-Maoist, left three persons dead in Madhuwapur in Saptari district on Monday.
All the three dead are said to be cadres of the Jwala Singh-led JTMM, police said.
The deceased have been identified as Jitendra Daita Yadav of Joginiya-8, Rajesh Yadav of Deuribharuwa-4 and Murali Jha "Manish" of Rajbiraj Municipality-8, police Inspector Subhash Chandra Chaudhary said.
Eight cadres of the JTMM-Goit faction came on four motorbikes and opened fire on the group of Jwala Singh indiscreetly killing them on the spot, Chief District Officer Mohan Krishna Sapkota quoted the local residents, who were an eyewitness to the incident, as saying. Meanwhile, Jwala Singh has admitted that his party cadres clashed with the Goit group this afternoon. "The crossfire ensued after the Goit group attacked our cadres," said Singh.
Jwala Singh's cadres also abducted two of the Goit group.
Jwala Singh is the breakaway faction of the JTMM- Goit. The two groups had split in July last year. JTMM-Goit is led by Jaya Krishna Goit, who split from the mother party CPN-Maoist and has been launching anti-Maoist protests across the Terai region since then.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
dumbass 2/5/2007 10:14:54 PM EST
anand,
My attention has been drawn by some of your posts here in the forum from past few days.
i dont know what your problem is but i am extremely offeneded by some of the words used in your posts. I belong to a bramhan family of Nepal and you saying " pahade bahun " is considered as an inult to me and my family members. as you dont prefer to be called madhise, dhoti, bihari i do not like being called pahade bahun. In fact, i do not believe in the caste system and i do not like the idea of accusing whole group of people based on the mistakes of few members in the group. Girija might have been biased in ruling the country, but i do not deserve to get that blame. as far as the issue of discriminatiion goes, almost all groups in nepal try to dominate the other groups, some are successful some are not. even some people from so called higher caste in terai discriminate the people from the so called lower caste of the same region. thus any generalization as these should be banned completely and everyone should learn to respect evry other persson's feeling. inapropriate use of words like this will help only to weaken the cause you are defending.
Last edited on 2/5/2007 10:17:37 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Coffee n Cig 2/5/2007 11:56:00 PM EST
Anand Dai,
Since this discussions is going in a healthy way, I want to ask one question which I do not have the answer of. It is regarding the citizenship issue.
As far as I know, the citizenship obtaining procedure in Nepal, as it was in my case, was the VDC secretary writes the recomendation to the 'Jilla Prasasan Karyalaya'. You take that to the District Administration office and fill the forms. Then they do 'Sanakhat', I guess it is to double-check whether the VDC 'sifaris' is genuine or not. If there is anybody like your dad or your dad's siblings who have common blood-relation name in their citizenship card, they issue the card. If in case your family member (with that same blood lineage) is unable to attend there, (They have to be present physically), then the VDC chairman could take the responsibility of 'sanakhat'. And get the citizenship.
So, if this process was followed properly, every Nepali should have got the citizenship. Now, what I do not understand is, was it not like this for the people in Terai as well? If not, how was it like? For example, what was the process when YOU got it (since you have already told that you are from Terai, I believe you know the process)? And the most important thing is, as far as I know, and have seen, the VDC secretary is always a local person. So, was it that VDC secretary not issuing the 'sifaris'? If yes, didnt they know that those people were resident of that VDC? Why did not the process work properly?
Anand dai, I am, at this time, living with a person from Madhesh/Mithila. We regularly have healthy discussions about these issues, but he says that the process was the same. He says that this citizenship issue is bulshit. But, seeing even the top politicians of Nepal aggreeing to this problem, I doubt his view on it. He has non-nepali wife, she also has nepalese citizenship now, and she also says it was same process. Probably, he having studied in India most of the time, doesnt know much about the core issues in the villages, and thus has different view. If you, or anybody who knows, can explain this, I would be really really thankful to you.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
couldn't just listen anymore 2/6/2007 2:17:12 AM EST
Anand dai, could you please not use the phrase "Pahade Bahun" as a derogatory term? In a nation full of Pahade Bahuns, there probably have been many Pahade Bahuns who have been complete assholes and looked down at the "madhises." But by no means are all Pahade Bahuns the mortal enemies here. If you insist in making this a full-fledged battle between Pahade Bahun vs. Madhesis then you are free to do so, but without involving people who might happen to be a Pahade Bahun but are not explicitly quilty. About implicit guilt, there have been people over here who have been apologizing for not being educated enough about the Madhesh issues and all that. I don't think apologies are necessary. If upon learning about the issue a person comprehends, analyzes and comes to a rational decision, that is all that is necessary. And it is absolutely OK to disagree with what Anand bro or Bhagat bro are advocating for, within reasonable grounds (meaning, by putting forward counter-arguments and such, not picketing in front of Anand dai's home or calling Bhagat dai names and refusing to hold a meaningful dialogue).
Coming from a well-to-do Kathmandu family, I am only a generation away from being a full-fledged Pahade Bahun (my father is a Pahade Bahun). My folks have a sprawling family that extends far and wide. My mother was born in Raj Biraj but she happens to be from Gorkha (a testimony to the fact that her father - my grandfather - was a government employee during the early Pancha era and did get maujas in Terai). I have relatives who have been "madhesi" since quite a few generations ago (Gautam folks, specifically). Needless to say they (we) are all Bahun. As far as I know, the Madhesi Bahuns (not the ones who migrated from the hills but the supposedly indigenous ones) are as brutal in dealing with the Kamaiyas and Dalits as are the Pahade Bahuns (who were/still are as brutal with घर्ती's and "bhotes"). Furthermore, I have seen quite a few indigenous and rich landlords (not only the Chaudharys) looking down upon other indigenous madhesis. Therefore, I see the problem in Terai has more to it than we seem to be discussing so far. One of the biggest problems seems to be with land ownership, with many Pahade Bahuns and Chhetris and भरौटे people from the राणा-पञ्च era owning vast swathes of Terai land. Another of the biggest problems seems to do with the caste-system and the offensive disdain with which many Pahadi people treat many Terai people (personal dignity). The third biggest problem seems to be about nationality/identity - the feeling of having been snubbed all the time and being considered a second/third class citizen, if citizens at all - and how none of the Governments or political macho men have specifically spoken for/taken measures to improve the Terai region and its indigenous people. However, the biggest problem is something we have failed to discuss yet. It is manifold; it has layers:
1) While it is easy to come up with a list of problems faced by Terai (i.e. a list of grievances faced by indigenous Terai people), it is always problematic to list them in an order of preference (like I have done above). There will be camps (including myself) who will find my putting the land ownership issue before the nationality/identity issue offensive - it might perpetuate the myth that all that the indigenous madhesi people want is more lands/more money (which is not true).
2) Any meaningful dialogue and hence any meaningful solution must address each component of the given situation. In doing so, it is inevitable that preferences need to be made. The question then becomes how far is each party willing to compromise? If Anand dai is wanting a full secession and a new country for the Terai belt (this is a hypothetical situation) then are we (lets say as SEBSers/educated nepalis) willing to support him? Or would we violently protest such a demand (the emphasis is on "violently")? The thing is we all have these limits/lines that supposedly define our actions but how thick is that line? How flexible are we in crossing the borders (if there be borders)? Coming back to the point, my contention is that blaming Girija or Krishna Prasad Sitaula is very easy but once we step in the gray zone, how far are we willing to agree that what Girija and Sitaula did (order fire) stems from a deep hatred for the Madhesi people (as Anand dai seems to claim)? If both the parties stubbornly refuse to believe in anything except what they came to the table with, is dialogue even necessary? Lets all grab a rotten gun and shoot each other. What do we prefer the most? Peaceful way out with a few compromises or a hardliner approach with absolutely no compromise, even if that means violence (as Anand dai repeatedly threatens would be the scenario if the demands he puts are not met).
3) Revolutions begin with righteous aims. A mass movement is what it is - a crowd pleaser. The crowd with the most popularity gets the right to be righteous. In our case, the bigger Terai movement is a crowd pleaser (and a very worthy crowd pleaser in that actually). Nevertheless, when there are crowds within the bigger crowd and there is violence involved, it is very easy for the revolution to lose its course. Now the question is, has the bigger Terai movement already lost its course and is veering towards meaningless violence? Any answer to this hardy question will be prone to criticism. How far are we going to accept that what is happening in Terai is justifiable and is just? When will be the moment we can fairly cry foul and blast today's leaders as tomorrow's gundas? If we do it right now we are in danger of being labeled a madhesi-hater (by Anand dai, for sure) and if we don't do it right now we are in danger of losing our sanity (violence as a way out - really?). How comfortable are we with our own thoughts? Do I absolutely have to second anything Anand dai says? A crowd perhaps only perpetuates the untruth. In going with the crowd, am I losing my good judgment? If I don’t go with the crowd why do people consider me an enemy?
4) Lineages, heritage, genealogies are hideous things. If I trace my father's lineage, I can take it back to India. My forefathers migrated from what was a part of the Mughal Empire (Aurangzeb's strict Muslim rule and the mass Hindu exodus) to Karnali, Jumla and then all the way to Gorkha and Dhading and where not. As far as I know the indigenous people who have been wronged with this move are the Hilly belt people who were indentured and forced into servitude - the घर्ती's. People have been wronged and forced out of their homes since eons and probably will happen so for a long time (everywhere in the world, not only in our tiny country with its mountains of problems). Now, in this instance, the question is how terrible do we think is the plight of the indigenous madhes people? Is it really ethnic cleansing? Is it mass murder? Also, how far back (i.e. in lineage) must we go to consider a person in madhes to be indigenous? We need these answered if we are to accept Anand dai's arguments. Better still, Anand dai needs to answer these questions: Is a third-generation Pahade-Bahun-in-Madhes with plenty of lands your perpetrator? Is a first-generation Madhesh Brahmin (lets say sons of Brahmin migrants from Bihar, or even the son of a migrant Marwari from just across the border, lets say someone who moved to Birgunj, settled there and had kids) included in the cause JTMM fights for? Is a second-generation Pahade-Bahun-in-Madhes without much land and access to privileges (i.e. without contacts in the government offices) included? Is any of the less-privileged Terai migrants included?
5) The relationship between a) a minority group vocalizing an important and, again, righteous issue and the danger of the majority/ ruling group stubbing it out as an unwarranted protest; and, b) minority/repressed group protesting with a vengeance and the danger of the majority/ruling group bending to it too much, i.e. at the expense of other minority groups is very fragile and we all have to be careful neither to take too much nor to give too much, a precarious balance needing to be achieved. The question is, are we all capable of this? Can we dance this dance? I sure hope so.
This is getting too damn long. Hope a few things make sense. I really wish people would be sensible enough to eschew any violence. But then, oh well, what can I expect.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
कमल ८१३ 2/6/2007 6:15:58 AM EST
मधेश जनाधिकर फोरमको अगुवाहिमा भैरहेको भनिएको आन्दोलनको पछिल्लो रुप र परिणाम्लाई नियलेर हेर्दा शासनकित बन्नुपर्ने काठओर बाध्यता नेपालीहरुमा आइपरेकोछ । रुपमा मधेशको हक र अधिकार स्थापित गर्न गरिएको सङ्घर्श जस्तो देखिएपनि सारमा यो दरबारीया समान्ती प्रतिकृयाबदी सक्तिहरुको आशन्न संबिधान सभाको निर्वाचन हुन नदिने कुत्शित अभिलशाबट मन्चन् गरिएको प्रायोजित नाटक्को प्रारम्भिक परिदृश्य मात्रै प्रमाणित हुन्छ । अन्यथा आत्मनिर्णयको अधिकार सहितको संघैइय शासनकोको मुख्य मागकर्ता माओवादी लाई मदेश बिरोधिको रुपमा चित्रण गरेर आफुलाई मदेशको हिमाएती भन्न चाहने समुहले वास्तवमा कस्को अभिस्ट पुरा गर्न सहयोग गरिरहेक छन सोचनिय बिषय बनेको छ ।
आन्तरिम संबिधानमा माओवादीद्बारा आफुले १० बर्षाको जनयुद्धको दौरानमा उठान गरेका प्रमुख मुध्धाहरुलाई समाबेश गराउन पहल नगरेको होइन । यथास्थितिमा रमाउन चाहने सात् दलका प्रमुख हर्ताकर्ताको अकर्मन्यता, आत्मबिश्वाश्को कमि तथा सामन्ति सोचको परिणाम् स्वरुप् नै अन्तरिम् संबिधान माओबादीले परिकल्पना गरे अनुरुप् नभैइ यौटा न्युनत्तम् राजनैतिक् सहमति को दस्ताबेज् मात्र हो भन्ने कुरा बुझ्नलाई गार्हो पर्दैन।
मधेशको राजनैतिक अधिकारको निम्ति गरिएको भनिएको आन्दोलन विकशित घटनाक्रमसँगै दिशाहीन अराजाकतामा रुपान्तरण भै सकेको तथ्यलाई अब लुकाउन सकिदैन । सर्बसाधारण नागरिक,पत्रकार,मानव अधिकारकर्मी,प्रहरी लगायत एम्बुलेन्स्, राजनेताका शालिक्, राजनैतिक दल एबं सरकारी कार्यलय, माथि भएका आक्रमण्, तोड्फोड्, आगजनी र विध्वंशले यो आन्दोलनको मुल मर्ममाथि नै घम्भिर प्रहार गरेको छ । २३८ बर्षदेखिको दासता बाट मुक्ति पाउन आत्मनिर्णयको अधिकर सहितको शंघीय राज्य ब्यबस्था तथा समानुपातिक निर्वाचन प्रणाली जस्ता जायज मागको आवरणमा गलत समुहद्वारा मचाउन खोजिएको बितन्डाले अन्तत मधेशलाई नै हानी पुर्याउने निश्चित छ । आन्दोलनको अगुवाइ गरेको भनेर चिनिएको मधेश जनाधिकार फोरमको नियन्त्रण बाहिर गैसकेको मधेशको राजनीतिलाई अब माओवादी लगायत् सात राजनैतिक दल को एकताबद्ध प्रयासले मात्र प्रभावकारी रुपमा सम्बोधन गर्न सक्छ ।
यो प्रतिकुल अबस्थालाइ पनि राजनैतिक इच्छा शक्तिद्वारा उत्पिडित् मधेशि तथा अन्य समुदायको हितको निम्ति उपयोग गर्न सकिन्छ। तत्काल समाबेसी चरित्रको संघिय गणतन्त्र र जनसङ्ख्या एबं भौगोलिक आधारमा समनुपतिक निर्वाचन प्रणालिको सुनिस्चितता अन्तरिम विधायिकामार्फत गरेर जेष्ठमा हुन गैरहेको सम्बिधान सभाको चुनाव लाई सफल पार्नु पर्छ ।
फगत पार्टी गत स्वार्थको निम्तिमात्र जुङगाको लडाईं लड्ने हो भने नेपाली जनताले गरेको महान् बलिदानमाथि पुन: धोका नहोला भन्न सकिन्न। पोखरामा सेनाका जर्नेलले हालै दिएको अभिब्यक्तिले त्यही इङ्गीत गर्दैन र?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/6/2007 7:13:20 AM EST
A few clarifications:
1) That article with the 6 - demands was by Paramendra dais as you can see just below the titile. I agree with all the demands he has posted. As far as the tone and the language of the article goes, it is not mine.
2) I have made it pretty clear in the earlier thread that this fight is between Madhesis against oppression of the state. The state has been controlled exclusively by upper cast Pahadis ( thanks to the autocratic rule for over 200 years).
3) That said, my apologies to anyone who felt offended by use of language in some of my threads. Any neutral and accurate word used to refer to the group of people who have controlled Nepal for so long, would be of help for further discussion on this topic. Any suggestions?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680Anand 2/6/2007 10:07:54 AM EST
Personally, I think Madhesh should settle for nothing less than a separate state within Nepal right now ( However, one-man-one vote is the most important of all). The bias of the politician, journalist, and administration as exhibited in this last few weeks is strong enough indicator that Madhesis right will not be protected unless they are granted autonomy with significant powers.
The idea of going for a seprate country doesn't have supporters at the moment. If the Nepal government mobilizes its army against the Madhesis to supress the rebellion, its very likely that the soar will become so deep that more Madhesis will be convinced that even is Nepal government gives regional autonamy, they will always discriminate the Madhesis. The support for a seprate country will increase, what you are then looking at is a LTTE scenario.
And yes, Nepal has every right use whatever violence it wants to supress the rebellion of folks asking for a seprate country. Similarly, Madhesis will also have all the right to use whatever violence they can use to create a separate country.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Sanjay Das 2/6/2007 10:22:05 AM EST
I disagree with kamal. Let us not paint the movement as a regressionists' ploy.
Problem with maoists taking on things are, whenever things suit their designs, they become proletariate-rooted when they dont, obviously, the imperialists, palace, expansionist, the feudals and what not, every one is behind. It pained me a lot when Baburam bhattarai tried painting the madhesi movement as an effort by "phohor and kachra and bhagauda...and what not". Prachanda's interview on the madhesi issue showed how superficial knowledge he has on madhesh and madhesis.
Madhesi movement is result of opressions and indignity faced by madhesis for centuries and nothing else and I am sure most of us acknowledge that madhesis have been discriminated. Thanks to the maoists usual ignorance and arrogance on matters of liberty and their cadre's "I am always right- whole world is wrong - and if you dont agree with me- i will show you how the power comes from the barrel of the gun" attitude shown in Lahan, madhesis had to wake up for sure this time.
This waking up was not to belittle the pahadi brethern but to stand as equals. And as a citizen, be a madhesi, pahadi or himali, we should support our co-citizens in their effort to be equals.
It can not be ruled out the opportunist darbariyas and hindu extremists could have infiltrated the movement to try madhesi-pahadi divide and mete ugly violence on each other. But the violence was ignited by the maoist cadre and the violence parted by the Goit and Jwala singh are born out of maoists militarist politicising. Trying to taint the genuine efforts by average madhesis will not gain us anything. Average madhesis, I am sure, want nothing to do with violence and neither Goit nor Jwala singh represent madhesh.
Constituent assembly in the present form and shape is not of much value. If it goes ahead unaltered, the peace will only be very short lived.We have to have a federal set up and proportional representation for us all, to feel equal and proud citizens of the land. Rest are minor details.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Coffee n Cig 2/6/2007 12:41:57 PM EST
Anand Dai and others,
Since this discussions is going in a healthy way, I want to ask one question which I do not have the answer of. It is regarding the citizenship issue.
As far as I know, the citizenship obtaining procedure in Nepal, as it was in my case, was the VDC secretary writes the recomendation to the 'Jilla Prasasan Karyalaya'. You take that to the District Administration office and fill the forms. Then they do 'Sanakhat', I guess it is to double-check whether the VDC 'sifaris' is genuine or not. If there is anybody like your dad or your dad's siblings who have common blood-relation name in their citizenship card, they issue the card. If in case your family member (with that same blood lineage) is unable to attend there, (They have to be present physically), then the VDC chairman could take the responsibility of 'sanakhat'. And get the citizenship.
So, if this process was followed properly, every Nepali should have got the citizenship. Now, what I do not understand is, was it not like this for the people in Terai as well? If not, how was it like? For example, what was the process when YOU got it (since you have already told that you are from Terai, I believe you know the process)? And the most important thing is, as far as I know, and have seen, the VDC secretary is always a local person. So, was it that VDC secretary not issuing the 'sifaris'? If yes, didnt they know that those people were resident of that VDC? Why did not the process work properly?
Anand dai, I am, at this time, living with a person from Madhesh/Mithila. We regularly have healthy discussions about these issues, but he says that the process was the same. He says that this citizenship issue is bulshit. But, seeing even the top politicians of Nepal aggreeing to this problem, I doubt his view on it. He has non-nepali wife, she also has nepalese citizenship now, and she also says it was same process. Probably, he having studied in India most of the time, doesnt know much about the core issues in the villages, and thus has different view. If you, or anybody who knows, can explain this, I would be really really thankful to you.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
man 2/6/2007 1:52:07 PM EST
Quote: Originally posted by 680Anand
The idea of going for a seprate country doesn't have supporters at the moment. If the Nepal government mobilizes its army against the Madhesis to supress the rebellion, its very likely that the soar will become so deep that more Madhesis will be convinced that even is Nepal government gives regional autonamy, they will always discriminate the Madhesis. The support for a seprate country will increase, what YOU are then looking at is a LTTE scenario.
Hello Anand Dai,
I am not trying to pick on you or anything but sometimes when I read your comments I quite do not understand what you mean.
Do you want another LTTE situation in Nepal? This will be perfect.
And could you please elaborate the YOU part in your sentence. Wouldn't you, as a Nepalese, fall in the same category?
With all due respect.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/6/2007 2:55:16 PM EST
man,
You are over reading my sentence! Take it easy. That You didn't mean YOU and not me. English has never been my strength, right since BNKS.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/6/2007 3:06:55 PM EST
coeffe and cig,
Here is what my understanding is:
The old law said that unless your father or husband is a Nepali citizen, you can't be a Nepali citizen.
For those people whose fore-fathers didn't bother to have citizenship long ago are still facing the problem of citizenship. Generation after generation. This, I am sure is more common amongst poor, lower cast people the most. INone of of my relatives in Nepal has this problem.
There are around 13 million Madhesis and if 60 lakhs of Madhesis out 13 million are without citizenship, it 0.46%. Thats about the probability of finding a schrizophinic. Ask him how many schizophincs he knows out of all the people he knows.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
bad syntax 2/6/2007 3:23:00 PM EST
I just want to get the facts straight for my own understanding. From the post above:
Number of madhesis: 13 million
Number of madhesis without citizenship: 60 lakhs = 6 million
Percentage: 0.46%
I am not sure which one of the last two statistics is wrong. Is it really true that almost half the madhesis are without citizenship?
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
coeffe and cig,
Here is what my understanding is:
The old law said that unless your father or husband is a Nepali citizen, you can't be a Nepali citizen.
For those people whose fore-fathers didn't bother to have citizenship long ago are still facing the problem of citizenship. Generation after generation. This, I am sure is more common amongst poor, lower cast people the most. INone of of my relatives in Nepal has this problem.
There are around 13 million Madhesis and if 60 lakhs of Madhesis out 13 million are without citizenship, it 0.46%. Thats about the probability of finding a schrizophinic. Ask him how many schizophincs he knows out of all the people he knows.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/6/2007 3:55:16 PM EST
My bad. Its 46% not 0.46. Thats is hughe and can't be compared to the percentage of schrizophinic (1%). Well i don't I have any realtaives who have that problem. But then we have been in Nepal for 14 generation.
The estimate of the Congress government after it came to power in 2046 was 45 lakhs. I think this gives us an idea how secluded we are from the lives of the poor of Nepal.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/6/2007 11:11:34 PM EST
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
My bad. Its 46% not 0.46. Thats is hughe and can't be compared to the percentage of schrizophinic (1%). Well i don't I have any realtaives who have that problem. But then we have been in Nepal for 14 generation.
The estimate of the Congress government after it came to power in 2046 was 45 lakhs. I think this gives us an idea how secluded we are from the lives of the poor of Nepal.
Anand,
Could you site the source of data you have presented. I would like to look at it. 46% seems too much. Were all 46% people denied or never bothered to to get nagarikata?
As far as I know, if one had missed to obtained nagarikata, he/she would call sarjamin (I don't know english word for it) in presence of VDC representative and at least 11 or 13 people would aknowledge that the applicant is nepali by birth and write recommendation to CDO office and obtain citizenship. I have seen this type of case in my village. Main problem lied in eastern terai. In western terai, there are many with out nagarikata but its because most of them never cared much. In western terai, Pahadi easily gets nagarikata because its likely he/she is not Indian. Similarly tharus also easily get nagarikata because tharu population across the border is very thin. Perhaps in eastern nepal with maithali and bhojpuri communities, where people across the border also share same culture and language there might have been discrimination.
Time to time I have seen "nagarikata toli" going to village to distribute Nagarikata. Still many people have not got it. In eastern terai, i have read in papers, lower cast people are not able to get nagarikata because uppercast are not helpful to them (don't know how true is that). Here, nagarikata problem is presented as discrimation against terai people. True in many cases. But should not people as well as society where they live also be blamed? its easy to blame govt. But should the society not help the people to get nagarikata? You must have read news about forcing/threatening/beating nagarikata toli to provide nagarikata with out sufficient proof. In some places nagarikata toli are not allowed to work.
Every Nepali should get nagarikata. It is theie right, however doing proper paper work and all recommendations (if needed) is individual and social responsibility. Not just the responsibility of govt.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/6/2007 11:40:01 PM EST
Quote: Originally posted by कमल ८१३
मधेश जनाधिकर फोरमको अगुवाहिमा भैरहेको भनिएको आन्दोलनको पछिल्लो रुप र परिणाम्लाई नियलेर हेर्दा शासनकित बन्नुपर्ने काठओर बाध्यता नेपालीहरुमा आइपरेकोछ । रुपमा मधेशको हक र अधिकार स्थापित गर्न गरिएको सङ्घर्श जस्तो देखिएपनि सारमा यो दरबारीया समान्ती प्रतिकृयाबदी सक्तिहरुको आशन्न संबिधान सभाको निर्वाचन हुन नदिने कुत्शित अभिलशाबट मन्चन् गरिएको प्रायोजित नाटक्को प्रारम्भिक परिदृश्य मात्रै प्रमाणित हुन्छ । अन्यथा आत्मनिर्णयको अधिकार सहितको संघैइय शासनकोको मुख्य मागकर्ता माओवादी लाई मदेश बिरोधिको रुपमा चित्रण गरेर आफुलाई मदेशको हिमाएती भन्न चाहने समुहले वास्तवमा कस्को अभिस्ट पुरा गर्न सहयोग गरिरहेक छन सोचनिय बिषय बनेको छ ।
आन्तरिम संबिधानमा माओवादीद्बारा आफुले १० बर्षाको जनयुद्धको दौरानमा उठान गरेका प्रमुख मुध्धाहरुलाई समाबेश गराउन पहल नगरेको होइन । यथास्थितिमा रमाउन चाहने सात् दलका प्रमुख हर्ताकर्ताको अकर्मन्यता, आत्मबिश्वाश्को कमि तथा सामन्ति सोचको परिणाम् स्वरुप् नै अन्तरिम् संबिधान माओबादीले परिकल्पना गरे अनुरुप् नभैइ यौटा न्युनत्तम् राजनैतिक् सहमति को दस्ताबेज् मात्र हो भन्ने कुरा बुझ्नलाई गार्हो पर्दैन।
मधेशको राजनैतिक अधिकारको निम्ति गरिएको भनिएको आन्दोलन विकशित घटनाक्रमसँगै दिशाहीन अराजाकतामा रुपान्तरण भै सकेको तथ्यलाई अब लुकाउन सकिदैन । सर्बसाधारण नागरिक,पत्रकार,मानव अधिकारकर्मी,प्रहरी लगायत एम्बुलेन्स्, राजनेताका शालिक्, राजनैतिक दल एबं सरकारी कार्यलय, माथि भएका आक्रमण्, तोड्फोड्, आगजनी र विध्वंशले यो आन्दोलनको मुल मर्ममाथि नै घम्भिर प्रहार गरेको छ । २३८ बर्षदेखिको दासता बाट मुक्ति पाउन आत्मनिर्णयको अधिकर सहितको शंघीय राज्य ब्यबस्था तथा समानुपातिक निर्वाचन प्रणाली जस्ता जायज मागको आवरणमा गलत समुहद्वारा मचाउन खोजिएको बितन्डाले अन्तत मधेशलाई नै हानी पुर्याउने निश्चित छ । आन्दोलनको अगुवाइ गरेको भनेर चिनिएको मधेश जनाधिकार फोरमको नियन्त्रण बाहिर गैसकेको मधेशको राजनीतिलाई अब माओवादी लगायत् सात राजनैतिक दल को एकताबद्ध प्रयासले मात्र प्रभावकारी रुपमा सम्बोधन गर्न सक्छ ।
यो प्रतिकुल अबस्थालाइ पनि राजनैतिक इच्छा शक्तिद्वारा उत्पिडित् मधेशि तथा अन्य समुदायको हितको निम्ति उपयोग गर्न सकिन्छ। तत्काल समाबेसी चरित्रको संघिय गणतन्त्र र जनसङ्ख्या एबं भौगोलिक आधारमा समनुपतिक निर्वाचन प्रणालिको सुनिस्चितता अन्तरिम विधायिकामार्फत गरेर जेष्ठमा हुन गैरहेको सम्बिधान सभाको चुनाव लाई सफल पार्नु पर्छ ।
फगत पार्टी गत स्वार्थको निम्तिमात्र जुङगाको लडाईं लड्ने हो भने नेपाली जनताले गरेको महान् बलिदानमाथि पुन: धोका नहोला भन्न सकिन्न। पोखरामा सेनाका जर्नेलले हालै दिएको अभिब्यक्तिले त्यही इङ्गीत गर्दैन र?
In Nepal democracy have Never existed. Neither 2007 nor 2017 nor 2047 nor 2063 really brought democracy. yes we have used the word democracy very often but never bothered what democracy is. We have always understood democracy means getting affiliated with some political party. Praise their leaders, if the leaders go somewhere, stand before them with garland and color his face.
In 2007 democracy came to Congress. In 2017 democracy was for King Mahendra. In 2047 democracy was for Congress, UML, RPP and Sadvawana, then it went in the hands of Gyanendra. Last april democracy came to 8 parties. They have right to do anything. They don't have any responsibility. Just blame others whom they don't like. cool ... for them. We nepalese are proud because once again we can be close with some leaders or party no matter what they do, what they say, how they treat others.... and we now have oppertunity to hate people with different political faith. So, kamal is not exception. He blamed palace for what is happening in Terai. He did not visualize leaders attitude towards it. He does not live in Terai. He has not faced the problem which Terai people have faced. So why should he care to think what real problem is? What ever political belief he has... thats enough for him.
Mentality of many people is similar to that of K......including me. Nepal needs to get rid of this attitude to enjoy democracy. Without change in this type of attitude, federal republic will not be different from Panchayati Nepal. Just by changing the political model, country does not prosper.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680Anand 2/7/2007 2:55:07 PM EST
Protest needs to continue. These guys in Kathmandu need to be defeated.
Girija is is too vague. He is still not respecting this movement the respect it deserves. People who died are Martyrs just like the April revolution, nothing less.
There should be absolutely no comrimise on One-man-one vote. If 50% people lives in the terai, 50% of the seats has to be in the Terai. There is no compromise on this one. Or else, consider the whole country as one constituents and let everyone vote to whichever party they want to vote.
It seems like its time Madhesis take over the government office and declare their own state government ( within Nepal).
Girija doesn't have respect for democracy, he things the country is his Congress Party.
Last edited on 2/7/2007 2:55:44 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Gharti 2/7/2007 3:36:49 PM EST
Depressing as it might sound, this movement is not getting too far. Whoever is leading this movement is making the same mistakes that other movements have made in the past.
First, the protests are still not taking place in Kathmandu. If we are to learn anything from the April revolution, then it is that the protests have to be in Kathmandu. That's where NGOs, human right groups, journalists, foreignors, etc. see when violations of human rights take place. News sources say more than two dozen people have already died in these protests. By the time this many people were killed in April, protest was in its decisive phase. And the pressure from outside was more than just "we hope the government finds a peaceful solution to the crisis." Protests outside of Kathmandu are hurting the poor.
Second, as much as many advocates of this movement hated Ram Chandra Poudel when he said that the Terai movement lacked leadership, it does seem like there is no one really taking the lead on this movement. Where is the Girija Prasad Koirala of this movement? And it's a shame that different Madhesi groups are fighting against each other.
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I have to disagree with Anand dai that the government is not listening. What are these marathon meetings to address the movement about? I think most of us agree that democracy is a messy process and it's difficult to come up with consensus when there are eight different parties involved. Granted the movement in the street should go on to keep a pressure, but it's ridiculous for someone in comfy living room in Indiana to say that the goverment is doing nothing!
As I read more and most postings/articles by Anand dai and Paramendra dai, I have started to think that these guys are worsening the movement. They don't seem to get four basic points: (1) this movement will get no where even if 20 more people are killed as long as there is a consensus government in place. And a few madhesis can't change that. Your Sadbhawana party is there! (2) The saamsads from the Terai region have already withdrawn their decision to resign from the parliament. Aren't you guys too detached from the reality to say that the government is doing nothing? (3) Not every Pahadi is your enemy. Not every Bahun is your enemy. But you are making many moderate Pahadis feel like they are your enemies. (4) If you feel that you are a part of Nepal (and I have every reason to question this, given that you are willing to go for a SEPARATE country), a separate country is not what you advocate for. You should be advocating for an integrated Nepal.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680Anand 2/7/2007 4:10:08 PM EST
True, they have been doing meetings after meeting. But, what was the outcome of these meeting? Do you see much difference between Girija's first address and this one. Its annoying that take a week to say sorry and repeat the same thing he said in the old address. Our leader is Upendra Yadav. These current leaders in Kathamdu don't want to recognize him as our leader, because doing so means establishing a hughe competitor who is gonna take votes from each of the parties that are in the governmet at the moment. He is trying get Madhesis into talks and hassale about how many constituents they should add in Terai. He has to be clear about where he stands on this. We want one-man-vote, nothing less. No more jargon from Mr. Koirala. Maybe he is still looking for an "appropriate" time, waiting for some more 15 year old "thugs and dacoits" fron Bihar to die.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Yubraj 2/7/2007 4:38:14 PM EST
Question for Anand dai:
So the official speech of the PM is out: http://www.nepalnews.com/archive/2007/feb/feb07/news22.php
What next? Should the movement stop?
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/7/2007 6:02:32 PM EST
Yubraj:
I don't think the movement should stop.
I see this as another bargain from the leadership in Kathmandu. They really don't seem to care giving equal political rights to the Madhesis in the Terai. Girjia needs to be clear on either in his belief in one-man- one vote. If he is going to throw this geogrpahy thing, then he should spell out how many seats he is going to add in the Terai.
I thought they were discussing how many more constituents was going to be added to the Terai. Turns out there were discussing whether to say sorry or not for so long. Other than saying sorry to people who have died, I don't see this speech any different that the earlier.
We will see what the reaction of normal Madhesis when the wake up in another 5-6 hour. I am surely not satisfied, and think that protest need to continue.
The leaders of this movement care more about their career, just like any other political leaders. We normal Madhesis care about our rights. Even if Madhesis leaders comprimise, I don't think the anger is subside. When I first read it, I felt angry, not happy. I am guessing most Madhesis are going to the feel the same way. Lets see what happens tomorrow.
We should continue the protest, and keep up the pressure on Kathmandu.
PS: For those who think I have advocate for another country-- please read by previous threads. And please don't read between lines.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
550b 2/7/2007 6:35:20 PM EST
"PM Koirala has also promised to increase the constituencies in Madhes based on population and hold elections (for the Constituent Assembly) based on Proportional Representation system on the increased constituencies also" This is a excerpt from nepalnews article
Though the exact number is not mentioned...seems like the movement is in the right direction.
Just a thought....now whats the gap that was demanded and offered? This would really help the debate.
This sounds preety close to what was demanded..lets talk about development and curbing voilence...so that people everywhere can have jobs, education and hopefully better quality of life for everyone.
Quote: Originally posted by 680 Anand
Yubraj:
I don't think the movement should stop.
I see this as another bargain from the leadership in Kathmandu. They really don't seem to care giving equal political rights to the Madhesis in the Terai. Girjia needs to be clear on either in his belief in one-man- one vote. If he is going to throw this geogrpahy thing, then he should spell out how many seats he is going to add in the Terai.
I thought they were discussing how many more constituents was going to be added to the Terai. Turns out there were discussing whether to say sorry or not for so long. Other than saying sorry to people who have died, I don't see this speech any different that the earlier.
We will see what the reaction of normal Madhesis when the wake up in another 5-6 hour. I am surely not satisfied, and think that protest need to continue.
The leaders of this movement care more about their career, just like any other political leaders. We normal Madhesis care about our rights. Even if Madhesis leaders comprimise, I don't think the anger is subside. When I first read it, I felt angry, not happy. I am guessing most Madhesis are going to the feel the same way. Lets see what happens tomorrow.
We should continue the protest, and keep up the pressure on Kathmandu.
PS: For those who think I have advocate for another country-- please read by previous threads. And please don't read between lines.
Last edited on 2/7/2007 7:02:51 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
haha 2/7/2007 6:41:57 PM EST
haha Anand, you are desperate. when should this chaos stop then?
few days ago during the protest 3 people were killed when the two faction of terai movementers fired each other. Not all Terai people have the same view of the movement.
Anand dai's demand about making Upendra Yadav a vice president is ridiculous. There was more mess during "rithik kanda" in Nepal than today. 4 people were killed in 2 days. Everything will settle down gradually. But I don't think there will be any significant difference in Terai people life after and before the movement other that getting few more constituency added to terai where some "Pahadi" will win the election. "Yo hallai halla ko desh ho"
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/7/2007 7:09:26 PM EST
haha,
you are right...i am desperate...i want this movement to succeed, not just end up as another riot like Hritik Roshan kanda....it surely seems that u r hoping that this subisdies. ...and ur tome seemed as if u r trying to make fun of me...( not that it matters much) ...I really hope this movement doesn't subside.
what madhesis are asking for in one-man-one vote....and i convinced that even when common Pahadi's like most of my fellow friends from the center of excellence don't seem to like this idea, forget Pahadi politicians who are actually going to loose their political clout over the leadership of the country. They will use all possible means to maintain the existing discrimination in voting...specially in one-man-one vote thing.
550b,
its not surprising that Rajendra Mahato agreed......as I said in my last post....politics is there career politicians....they care about their career first( just like you and me)....and then everything else. So what Rajendra Mahato believe doesn't affect my thinking, we will see if it effects the thinking of common Madhesis on the street in Janakpur and Birtanagar. I for sure, hope that that protest doesn't loose its momentum until....one-man-one vote is accepted.
And yes Situala should resign. If Girija is really sorry why doen't he ask his home minister to resign. This is like, mukh ma ram ram, bagali ma churi.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/7/2007 7:38:59 PM EST
Bhupen dai,
What madhesis are asking for is equal political right. Specially in terms of voting. If you go by one man one vote rule, 45 seats needs to be added in the Terai. If you make exception of really remote place like Humla, Junla, Roplpa, Dolpa, Mustang and some other mountainous region, Terai will need 25 other seats.
What Girjia came across was that he was for adding "few" more seats ( like 2 or 3., is how i interpreted it). He think once this movement subsides he can use his political acumen to settle for a small number. Even haha, who want this movement to end up as ho haala interpreted it the same way.
Girjia is scared to commit a number. This movement should stop until he comits.
Plus, this administration doesn't seem to regret the loss of lives. Madhesis don't trust them. One way to send a signal that the administartion really regret for the loss of lives would be for Sitaula to resign.
They are not trying to win the hearts of Madhesis, but rather trying fool them with some jargon. I guess they never expected that Madhesis could unite in such a scale and put up a resistance like this.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Hari 2/7/2007 10:34:18 PM EST
While I respect the fight for rights and I agree that there has been a suppression in the terai region, I have to put up a different opinion about some of the things discussed out here.
First of all, one man-one vote system doesn't mean every X number of people will have 1 representative. The actual population might be different based on geographic location. Anand dai should be well aware of this simple fact that prevails all around the world. Asking for Y number of seats for Z number of people is irrational and inefficient.
Second, there has to be a place for market to function. I do not believe that quota system will help bring up the backward communities. So, all the talk about quota is likely to fail in the long run even if it might help a couple of people from the minorities and under- represented communities.
Third, Anand dai seems to be mistaken that one-man vote will solve the problem. The problem doesn't get solved by the nomination of Yadav or Mahato as the DPM either. This will help them grab some power but the madhesis in general will have to roll back to normal life- a life that co-exists with the pahadis.
Fourth, I see a bleak situation in Terai in the near future, thanks to all the violence that is prevailing at present. It seems some of the extremist groups are able to incite the general madhesis and bring a state of chaos in the harmonious society. I know that tomorrow, pahadis need madhesis, and madhesis need pahadis to sustain life.
From my personal visits to some of the terai districts, I have seen many madhesis working for pahadi people to sustain themselves. If the pahadis are to retaliate by not allowing the madhesis to work in their farms, it is going to create a lot of serious problems-possibly another civil war in the country. While, the current revolution can be contained by political compromise, it is people like Singh, Yadav and Mahatos who are going to gain out of this. Majority of madhesis will have nothing to gain from this. All the talk about dignity makes no sense when you have a hard time filling up your stomach. I would rather not vote than die and so would most people.
So, while I do want to see a developed madhesh, I doubt if aandolan like this would help us in the long run as we cannot succeed if we divide ourselves and I see a necessity of unity for sustainable development.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/7/2007 11:06:01 PM EST
The latest news says that Girja specified the percentage of constituency ( thats one man one vote) . The main most important demand has been fulfilled. Rest can wait.
Madhesis should come down and express their grievence in the ballot box now.
49pc seats for terai in CA
BY YUVRAJ ACHARYA
KATHMANDU, Feb 8 - The eight political parties have finally signed an agreement guaranteeing the terai region representation in the constituent assembly in proportion to its population.
The eight-party leaders inked the deal at 11 pm on Wednesday after grueling negotiations that lasted two days.
Following the agreement, Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala addressed the nation at 11:15 pm. His address was broadcast live by state-owned Radio Nepal.
Addressing the nation for the second time in less than a week, PM Koirala said, "The constituencies in the terai region will be increased in proportion to its population and the seats to be elected through a proportional representation system will also be increased accordingly."
Leaders involved in the negotiations told The Kathmandu Post that the 20 districts in the southern strip with 48.4 percent of the country's population will get 49 percent seats in the Constituent Assembly, while 51 percent seats will be divided among the 55 hilly and Himalayan districts that have 51.6 percent of the population.
Koirala also said that all the groups in the country including Madhesi, dalits, janajatis, women, laborers, peasants and backward classes and regions will be included in the state organs on the basis of the principle of proportional inclusion.
Koirala said the government will make necessary arrangements to address the issues of a federal system of governance and delineation of electoral constituencies through immediate amendment in the Interim Constitution.
"The government is committed to fulfilling the legitimate demands raised (by Madhesi people) during the movement," said Koirala in his address.
"It is our collective commitment to hold constituent assembly elections by mid-June, for which the constituencies will be delineated on the basis of equal population, geographical feasibility and specialty," said Koirala.
Koirala also appealed to all the agitating groups to end their protests and explore solutions to their problems through dialogue. Koirala applauded the role of the Madhesi people in past democratic movements and said he respects the spirit of the Madhesi people.
He also expressed sorrow over the demise of civilians and security personnel during the three-week-long movement.
The prime minister also pledged relief to all the victims' families, wished for the speedy recovery of the injured, assured their treatment, and regretted the loss of property.
The prime minister also appealed to the people for their goodwill, tolerance and harmony in order to hold constituent assembly elections as a way to consolidate the democratic system in the country.
The terai unrest, which sparked from Lahan on January 19, claimed the lives of 21 people and left hundreds injured. Similarly, hundreds of government offices and private properties have been vandalized during the last three weeks.
The violence began after a Maoist cadre escorting party leader Ram Karki shot dead Madhesi Janaadhikar Forum activist Ramesh Kumar Mahato in Lahan. The violence spread to other terai districts after Maoists seized Mahato's body and forced family members to cremate the body.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/8/2007 12:24:17 AM EST
I always supported Terai movement however I had not expected madhesh would get more than its share. Being a resident of Terai from generation to generation, I should have been proud of what Terai received. However I feel that 49% of representation is not what Terai should have got. Its shame for all terai people to accept extra share in expense of others. Terai's population is 48.4% so it should have 48.4% of representation at most. But not more than that. Though difference between 49% and 48.4% is not much, however it is equivalent to 1-3 members in parliament. Thats not much. But why should Terai people have to be greedy about it. We know, hilly and terai region population is approximately equal. So, first provide seat to himlayan region (as that region is the one which needs most attention of the nation), then whatever the seats remain, it should have been equally divided between Hills and Pahad. If himalayan region is not made to be loss, then pahadi region is going to be at loss. So should Pahadi also demad for fair seat. Terai people have failed to visualize the difference between Hills and Himalayas. This govt decleared 49% to terai region just to cool down the strike in Terai but it forgot what equality is. In past small portion of Pahadis dominated terai and rest of the country but now its Terai is moving towards dominating others even though they are still not at majority. If this happens, what is the difference between past regime and regime we are talking about.
I am shocked when geographic criteria is not considered.
Last edited on 2/8/2007 12:36:16 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/8/2007 1:12:42 AM EST
डोल्पामा भोकमरी
Every year one or other himali district faces famine. Food does not grow much. No means of bringing food from other places. They don't have schools or colleges nearby to send their kids to study. They don't have money to fly down to some Terai district head quater for health problem. Even if they have some money, they may still need to walk several days to reach nearest airport. They never went for strike. They never blocked the roads because they don't have it. No one ever cared for them. They lived with what they have. Terai people just think they are blood sucking pahadis and Pahadi people think they are jangali bhote. No complain for that.
These are the people who should get more voice and priority than others. We talk about democracy and at the same time we talk about more representation from the nations affluent region.
When we will think about the problem faced by these people? People like us, who studied in national school, know how our friends from Himali district used to suffer when they were going home on vacation. One of my classmate from Kalikot, used to hate going home three times a year because he had to walk for 4 days from nearest airport to reach his home. many time he had to stay in Nepalganj because of flight cancel. Just a kid he had to survive on whatever travel money he was given by the school ( and many of us may remember Sakya Sir's attitude towards students from remote places and travel money). And we Terai people are asking for more share than what we should have got, making population as a sole basis for representation. Don't you guys think its time for himali people to go for strike.
डोल्पामा भोकमरी
कान्तिपुर समाचारदाता
डोल्पा -दुनै, माघ २४ - डोल्पालीहरूको भण्डार रित्तिनुका साथै नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानका डिपोहरू सञ्चालन नभएका कारण यहा“ भोकमरीको अवस्था सिर्जित भएको छ ।
गत वर्षो खडेरी र नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानका गोदामहरू खाली भएका कारण यहा“ खाद्यान्न अभावपछि भोकमरी सुरु
भएको हो ।
खडेरीका कारण गत वर्षखाद्यान्न बाली उत्पादनमा कमी आएको थियो । डोल्पालीहरूको घरमा अन्न सकिएकोले भोकमरी सुरु भएको त्रिपुराकोटका लक्ष्मीनारायण न्यौपानेले बताए । 'नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानको डिपोमा चामल छैन, सदरमुकामको खाद्य गोदामबाट हामीलाई चामल दि“दैन,' उनी भन्छन्- 'गाउ“-गाउ“ गएर मकैलगायत अन्न खोज्दा पाइ“दैन, कसरी जीवन धान्ने -' उनले भोकमरीले जिल्लाबासीलाई पिरोल्न थालिसकेको बताए ।
'यतिबेला र्सर्मी, नर्कु, कालिका, रिमी, काइगाउ“, लिकु, पाहाडा, त्रिपुराकोट, ल्हा“लगायतका गाविसहरूमा खाद्यान्न अभाव छ,' नेकपा -माओवादी) का रामलाल विक 'शिखर' ले भने- 'त्यस क्षेत्रमा भोकमरीको अवस्था छ ।' उनले सरकारले डिपोहरू तत्कालै सञ्चालन गरेर भोकमरी नियन्त्रण गर्नुपर्ने बताए । शान्ति स्थापना भएको महिनौं बितिसक्दा पनि जिल्लाका ३ वटा डिपोमा नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानले कर्मचारी पर्ठाई सञ्चालन गर्न सकेको छैन । खाद्य संस्थानले जानी-जानी ढिलाइ गरिरहेको जिल्लास्थित एमाले, कांग्रेस र माओवादीले आरोप लगाएका छन् ।
डिपोहरू सञ्चालन नहु“दा चामल पुग्न नसकेका कारण गाउ“मा जनताप्रति किलो ९० रुपैया“ तिरेर चामल खान बाध्य छन् । उनले भने- 'पैसा हुनेले पो यो मह“गो चामल खान सक्छन्, गरिबहरूले कसरी जीवन निर्वाह गर्ने भन्नेबारे सरकारले पनि सोच्नर्ुपर्छ ।'
हाल भोकमरी सुरु भएका क्षेत्रका नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानका डिपोहरू र्सर्मी, काइगाउ“ र लिकुका लागि चामल ढुवानी ठेक्का गरेको भए पनि प्रधान कार्यालयले हालसम्म कर्मचारीको व्यवस्था गरेको छैन । डिपो सञ्चालन नहु“दा खाद्यान्न अभाव भएर भोकमरी सुरु भएको आरोप डोल्पाबासीहरूको छ ।
जिल्लामा खाद्यान्न न्यून मौज्दात र ढुवानी गर्न बा“की पनि न्यून रहेकोले यो आवको अझै ५ महिना बा“की रहेकाले कोटा चामलले नपुग्ने देखिएको छ । प्रशासन कार्यालयमा सोमबार बसेको जिल्ला खाद्य व्यवस्था समितिको बैठकले यहा“ थप खाद्यान्न आवश्यक पर्ने भएकोले दुनै र जुफाल गोदामका लागि ४ हजार क्विन्टल, र्सर्मी, काइगाउ“ र लिकु खाद्य डिपोहरूका लागि ५/५ सय क्विन्टल र तिन्जे डिपोका लागि १ हजार क्विन्टल खाद्यान्नसहित ६ हजार ५ सय क्विन्टल खाद्यान्न -चामल) थप गरी पठाउन माग गरिएको छ । नेपाल खाद्य संस्थान प्रधान कार्यालय काठमाडौंलाई
उक्त माग गरी पठाएको नेपाल खाद्य संस्थान शाखा कार्यालय डोल्पाका शाखा प्रमुख जयराज ओझाले बताए ।
नेपाल खाद्य संस्थानले डोल्पाको वाषिर्क कोटा ७ हजार ८ सय क्विन्टल चामलमध्ये हालसम्म ५ हजार ८ सय ८८ क्विन्टल चामल जिल्लामा प्राप्त भएर ३ हजार ९ सय ५५ क्विन्टल बिक्री वितरण भइसकेको जनायो । डिपोहरूमा एक गेडा पनि चामल नभएको र दुनै गोदाममा करिब १ हजार नौ सय क्विन्टल चामल मौज्दात रहेको बताइएको छ ।
Last edited on 2/8/2007 1:26:25 AM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
junge 2/8/2007 3:31:50 PM EST
Looks like we are heading towards a compromise. Hopefully, the negotiations will ensure lasting peace and justice
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Agitating Madhesi Forum suspends protests for 10 days
Kantipur Report
KATHMANDU, Feb 8 - Agitating Madhesi People's Rights Forum (MPRF) Thursday suspended its strikes and protest demonstrations across the Terai region for 10 days in the wake of prime minister's address on Wednesday.
"We have decided to stop our strikes and bandas for 10 days in order to create an environment conducive for talks with the government from today," Upendra Yadav, chairman of the MPRF told a press conference in the capital today.
He, however, said that the peaceful demonstrations across the Terai would continue demanding the regional autonomy.
"The Madhesi people have taken the prime minister's yesterday's statement as victory in Nepal's history," said Yadav, adding, "But we are concerned that the PM couldn’t clearly mention about the regional autonomy that we had been asking for."
Yadav also asked the government to form a high-level probe commission to investigate into the killings and violence during the Terai movement.
Earlier on Wednesday night, the eight political parties signed an agreement guaranteeing the Terai region representation in the constituent assembly in proportion to its population.
Addressing the nation PM Koirala had said that the constituencies in the Terai region would be increased in proportion to its population and the seats to be elected through a proportional representation system would also be increased accordingly.
As per the agreement, the 20 districts in the southern strip with 48.4 percent of the country's population will get 49 percent seats in the Constituent Assembly, while 51 percent seats will be divided among the 55 hilly and Himalayan districts that have 51.6 percent of the population.
The eight parties also agreed that all the groups in the country including Madhesi, dalits, janajatis, women, laborers, peasants and backward classes and regions will be included in the state organs on the basis of the principle of proportional inclusion. The Terai unrest, which sparked from Lahan on January 19, has already claimed the lives of 21 people and left hundreds injured.
The violence began after a Maoist cadre escorting party leader Ram Karki shot dead Madhesi Janaadhikar Forum activist Ramesh Kumar Mahato in Lahan. The violence spread to other Terai districts after Maoists seized Mahato's body and forced family members to cremate the body.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
himali 2/9/2007 1:35:07 AM EST
i totally agree with Topaz. the situation in himalayan region is worst than terai.
i seriously think we himali ppl should go for the strick and we are the one who are actually being exploited here.
i am serious. i remember we always used to have some madhesi teachers and most of us would not understand a shit because they wouldnt speak proper nepali. at the same time most of them used to get fired whenever they had the check because most of them had the fake certificates bought from india. by this i am not saying all the madhesis are fucked up and its their fault, what i am saying is that its government's fault becasue they are the one who employed the unqualified ppl and they are the one who send them to himal with out the proper knowledge of nepali language. i really dont have any thing against madhesis and whatever they did was great and i respect that. but i have a concern about all that population thingy, u ppl dont get mad but its the truth, there are so many indians or biharis who have nepali citizenship and u ppl will go for strick and say u are not being consider equal if they are not given the citizenahip thats real no lies. i am sure there are so many madhesis who has indian citizenship apart form nepali. it may be because of the open border but what it matters is that are all madhesis who consider themselves being exploited and sucked by pahadis real nepalese? second, do all madhesis think they are true nepalese? by this i am saying, are they truly consider themselves as real nepalese?
these are the concern that i have against madhesis but u guys, respct! next time when i go out to the chatpate guy i wont eat for free, for real.
big up urself madhesis.
but its the time for himalis to take over the streets of kathmandu now. unite all the himalis to fight against the sucker, unqualified, madhesis and pahadi ppl. what say u?
i think this is the lession that nepalese got after the so called "janaandolan II", so that means there is never gonna be a peacefull nepal and after himalis it will be somebody's turn to come out.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
680 Anand 2/9/2007 10:19:28 AM EST
HERE AND THERE
by DANIEL LAK
It’s all good
What’s happening here is positive, though it doesn’t always take good forms
From Issue #335 (09 February 07 - 15 February 07) | TABLE OF CONTENTS
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From afar, Nepal is looking good. That may shock and appall those of you queuing up to buy petrol, but it’s true. The situation looks grim from Kathmandu but at a distance, one can see a rosy glow of hope, of dawn after a long night of discrimination and cynicism.
As I flew out of the erstwhile kingdom two weeks ago, the jaws of the capital’s chattering classes were in overdrive. The tarai situation, Maoist nefariousness, secret king-led takeover conspiracies, an army coup, incompetence from the top down in the government, familiar scenes of a prime minister blithering while Lahan burned, the same old collection of high caste men plotting to deny everyone their rights.
Why, I was at one party where someone was so upset by it all, he barely managed a second whisky and had no appetite for the chicken momos. “It’s, it’s…..just wrong…” he sputtered…then grabbed a beaker of amber nectar and joined another conversation.
Nepal has always suffered from its elite’s blinkered, close-up, stuck-in-the-moment vision. No distance, no history, no context, no hope. When you talk to the same people all the time, the conversation is bound to distill downwards. A spurious rumour you started last week is this week’s absolute truth, next week’s fallacious fact.
But as you move away from the crazed confines of the benighted Valley, time and space offer perspective. It all of a sudden seems almost comprehensible. What’s going on around the country becomes logical and even a good thing.
What’s not good is deaths, injuries, disrupted lives. So when I say that events in the tarai or elsewhere are to be welcomed, I exclude violence and its direct impact on people and families in the affected area. I do not however think there’s anything wrong with a little discomfort and inconvenience in the capital. Too much comfort over the years has much to answer for here. That petrol line or the shivery dark moments during power cuts, think of them as opportunities to reflect upon what the Valley has, and the what rest of the country lacks.
That’s what it is all about. People in the tarai are moving into the democratic space created by various Jana Andolans and demanding a share of it. They don’t want empty promises or visions of equity and peace in some unspecific future. They want their space now, and they want lasting title to it. So does every other community in the country that has been left out while the top people of business, palace, and politics partied in Kathmandu.
Sitting in Canada, a diverse place that has had more than its share of aggrieved citizens, I feel Nepal’s excluded masses are behaving logically. Just as the people of Quebec behaved here a generation ago. Basically they said “give us our share or we’ll set up our own country”. It’s a tactic that worked beyond their wildest dreams. Quebec remains part of Canada but is both hugely autonomous and very influential in the country’s federal system.
This is so obviously the way ahead for Nepal. The only way to meet the demands of all excluded groups is to move quickly towards a devolved, federal system of government, even in the interim before a new constitution. Give the people what they want, give it to them now. Share power and—crucially—share responsibility for governance.
Because you know what? That’s exactly what’s going to happen. Whether certain high caste men in Kathmandu like it or not. One way or another, federalism is coming, and soon. It’s why Nepal is looking good. From a distance, anyway.
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Gilette 2/9/2007 7:43:34 PM EST
Finally someone who can spell tarai correctly. Bravo Daniel!
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
889Jay 2/10/2007 4:38:23 AM EST
Another good piece by Sheetal Kumar on Nepalitimes this week.
http://nepalitimes.com/issue/335/EyesWideShut/13205
_______________
Acute hearing
Don’t forget other groups when you sit down to talk
From Issue #335 (09 February 07 - 15 February 07)
BHASWOR OJHA
MAKING AMENDS: (l-r) NC-D's Gopal Man Shrestha, UML's Madhab Kumar Nepal, Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala, Maoist Chairman Puspa Kamal Dahal, Deputy Prime Minister Amik Sherchan, and Nepal Workers and Peasant Party's Narayan Man Bijuckhe stand together after Koirala's address to the nation following an eight-party meeting on the tarai situation on Wednesday night.
One wonders what the government must do before the Madhesi Janadhikar Forum (MJF) comes forward for dialogue. Upendra Yadav’s group resolutely refused to talk until Home Minister Krishna Sitaula was fired. The MJF has also demanded that Nepal be declared a federal republic, and that electoral constituencies be redrawn on the basis of population.
After marathon sessions at Baluwatar with his allies, Prime Minister Koirala put on a sober face Wednesday night (pictured) and said what he had failed to say the first time round: sorry for the deaths, we shall compensate the victims, your grievances are genuine and we shall meet your legitimate demands. Then he spelt out the eight parties’ commitment to a federal government, and promised that electoral constituencies would be redrawn to give the tarai 49 percent of parliamentary seats. Exactly how these will be done remains to be negotiated.
Whether this is seen by madhesi protestors as enough of a climbdown by a haughty pahadi-dominated government, we shall see in due course. But the more important point is that momentous political declarations have a way of separating the moderates from the radicals. Something like that is likely now.
The first indications from the tarai are that most moderate madhesi leaders and politicians, though not fully satisfied, are leaning towards accepting Koirala’s concessions. One prominent madhesi journalist told me by phone: “the prime minister could have gone further, but we think what he said is good enough. The fight will move off the streets and into parliament and negotiations committees.”
Another madhesi civil society leader said Kathmandu’s concessions could split the madhesis because there will always be some who are unsatisfied. “The onus is now on the MJF. We all want to see whether it truly represents the broad sentiments of the madhes or is just another spoiler,” he says.
The MJF can keep fighting if it wants to, since Koirala did not fire his Home Minister Krishna Prasad Sitaula. But Upendra Yadav and his MJF will be missing a critical point if they continue to refuse talks: With each day’s delay in dialogue, they become as much responsible as the police for the needless deaths in the tarai. At least 15 lives could have been saved in the past two weeks if Yadav had only talked.
Having said that, are Yadav and the MJF the true interlocutors of the madhes? Let’s hear madhesis themselves answer this question. With all due respect for the MJF, it must be said that the slogans it is raising today were first raised by Nepal Sadbhavana Party, back in 1990. The truth is, the MJF happened to be in the right place at the right time by one of those quirky accidents of history. There is no question about the legitimacy of madhesi grievances, but there are many questions about whether the MJF really represents all the tarai constituencies. It would be a travesty, then, if the government focussed all its negotiating energies on the MJF alone.
There will be talks, eventually. But should the table be occupied by only the government and madhesi groups? What about the pahadis who have lived in the madhes for years? Should they not get a seat at the table? History’s lessons have shown that excluding groups whose fates are decided by others inevitably leads to future conflicts. If the madhesi leadership is wise, it will reach out to tarai pahadis now.
And of course, since any dialogue will resolve around questions of identity, exclusion, representation, federation, and affirmative action, it would be equally wise to invite representative janajati, dalit, women and every other marginalised group in the nation to the dialogue table. All these groups are demanding the same fundamental things.
If Peace Process II has to happen—and it must—let it happen in its entirety.
Last edited on 2/10/2007 2:52:31 PM EST
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Re: Himal Pahad Terai- Kohi Chaina Parai
Topaz 2/10/2007 7:09:06 AM EST
Good piece of writing by Seetal Kumar
Last edited on 2/10/2007 2:50:35 PM EST
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